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How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

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Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#301

Post by rdtsc »

pm90 wrote: post #234
unprepare wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>especially a great starting salary. This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? meanwhile record numbers of american college graduates are finding part time work at mcdonalds and starbucks. Sure wish some of my friends and former classmates could get 60k/yr jobs, instead of 24 hrs/wk @ 8.25 an hour. But no, its because tech compani…

> This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I went to school in one of the best CS programs in the country. Believe me: there are all kinds of outreach programs, high school outreach programs etc. to get more Americans involved in Tech. An…

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it.

Everyone's experience varies of course. I have interviewed kids regularly from all tiers of US universities (most recently CMU). As a rule I found an international Masters student has a much better chance of failing the basic coding exam than an American-born BS graduate. Also I noticed when it comes to top students, American students overall come ahead in our interview process.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#302

Post by jacquesm »

mywittyname wrote: post #218
jacquesm wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in your statements. The Native Americans had an economy too. > The growth the US economy throughout its history was driven heavily by immigration. Yes, because of the increase in demand for goods by those immigrants who brought their money/gold/silver if they had it but very little in terms of goods, and if they didn't have anything they immediately went to work in order to make end…

I'm not being hypocritical at all. The Native Americans had an economy, yes. But the economy was much, much bigger after immigration. That's my entire point: immigration fueled economic growth in America. Skilled labor (and investment capital) played a major part. From horticulturalist to provide plants for early agriculture, to carpenters and ship builders in Boston (and later steel and tools makers), to the physici…

> I'm not being hypocritical at all.

We're going to have to differ on that.

> The Native Americans had an economy, yes. But the economy was much, much bigger after immigration.

But native Americans did not necessarily benefit from that larger economy, in fact, in a very measurable way did the opposite. Mostly because the immigrants were exactly that which the current ones are unjustly accused of (being murderous bastards).

The one thing the Native Americans weren't saying was 'these Europeans are here because of our jobs'.

> That's my entire point: immigration fueled economic growth in America.

But for a different reason than the one you keep harping on.

It grew because of their capital and consumption.

> Skilled labor (and investment capital) played a major part.

Less than you think or wish to believe, but since you're somewhat stuck on this I'll just let it go.

If you feel open minded I encourage you to read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_immigration_to_the_...

And not to just cherry pick the bits that fit your narrative.

> From horticulturalist to provide plants for early agriculture, to carpenters and ship builders in Boston (and later steel and tools makers), to the physicists and engineers fleeing Europe during the World Wars, to the technology people today. All of these people contributed to the technological growth and dominance of the US.

That they did. But - again - they are not the predominant factor. In fact the employers needed the immigrants (so immigrants needing other immigrants) mostly for 'dumb' labor (hence also the import of many slaves from Africa and indentured people from Europe).

> If none of these immigrants were skilled, the US would look more like China or India than it does.

No, the US would look more like England, which in fact it does.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#303

Post by carry_bit »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #252
nanistheonlyist wrote: post #192

Which is why trump is keeping out the invaders.

Historical misconception: Rome was not destroyed by barbarians at the gates, it was destroyed by barbarians inside the gates, hired as mercenary replacements for military regulars. Once the gold dried up, they sacked their former clients or simply left to find other work, leaving many Roman regions sparsely defended. You analogy does not hold up.

It holds up quite well actually. You pretty much outlined why step two is deportation, to remove those already inside the gates.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#304

Post by jamesmp98 »

unprepare wrote: post #207
cortuso wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, my understanding of IT market, is that shortage of candidates Silicon Valley, and not only, so complains about, is because there are NO local candidates willing to take that job, and not because "all those indians steal our young grads jobs". If by saying "So you're saying the incentives would work as intended" you mean minimum salary wage will raise because of that, don't think so.

> NO local candidates willing to take that job >not because "all those indians steal our young grads jobs" Yet we have record numbers of college graduates working at starbucks and other hourly employers. Do you honestly believe that college graduates would rather work at starbucks or mcdonalds than a tech company doing IT?

Well now that C.S. is "hip" it's a pain to land a junior job. I'm no graduate, but I am a self taught (albeit) hobbyist developer doing it for a few years now working as a part time stocker for $8.00/h because junior jobs A) Don't exist. or B) Have stupid requirements.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#305

Post by bostonpete »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #95
edge17 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Category.asp...

Wow. I knew the H1B category was biased towards large companies, but I didn't realize it was so bad. The first cultural, linguistic, or otherwise geographically-constrained job in the list is #84, "Foreign Language And Literature Teachers." "Interpreters and Translators" is down at #131, with a grand total of 268 applicants - practically a rounding error after 300,000 tech applicants. Whatever_dude's example seems so…

> Wow. I knew the H1B category was biased towards large companies, but I didn't realize it was so bad.

Where does that page say anything about large companies?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#306

Post by TulliusCicero »

untog wrote: post #205
testUser69 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an interpreter is so rare that one can't be found in the US and they need to be hired internationally, then maybe it's worth it to pay $100,000?

Obviously we can't know what the organisation doing the hiring is like in this fictional scenario, but $100k would be a huge, huge amount for non-senior staff in rural Alabama no matter what. The problem with a hard salary floor is that it doesn't account for differences in cost of living at all. It would very quickly become the visa of coastal cities and little else.

If you factor in cost of living, the consulting agencies that currently abuse the system will just open up offices in cheap areas.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#307

Post by bb611 »

joe563323 wrote: post #160
devmunchies wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a single company in the fortune 500 that is fully remote?

Don't know if wordpress is fortune 500 company. But it is 15th most visited website in the world in 2013 https://hbr.org/2013/03/how-wordpress-thrives-with-a-1.html

wordpress.com is owned by Automattic, which I don't believe publicly publishes their revenues (a requirement for a fortune ranking). To break the 500 a company needs over $5 billion in annual revenue, Automattic's total valuation in its last round was only $1.16 billion, so they're not even playing in the same ballpark.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#308

Post by sidlls »

bendmorris wrote: post #94
sidlls wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be absurd? A highly specialized skill in an area that we can infer is generally less desirable to live should command a higher than average wage. Much higher if the situation is so desperate that a foreign worker has to be sought. Also: the majority (by far) of H1-B visas are for technology work. It may not technically be "tech only" but in practice it may as well be.

>an area that we can infer is generally less desirable to live Lower cost of living does not mean the area is undesirable to live. Building adequate housing supply (I know, unheard of in the Bay, but some cities do it) can cause cost of living to stay low. A major weakness of this policy is that it doesn't scale by regional median salary. Under exigency a company in SF could easily pay $130k to bring in a foreign wor…

Then require some multiple (> 1) of the average or median salary in the region.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#309

Post by [deleted] »

bendmorris wrote: post #94
sidlls wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be absurd? A highly specialized skill in an area that we can infer is generally less desirable to live should command a higher than average wage. Much higher if the situation is so desperate that a foreign worker has to be sought. Also: the majority (by far) of H1-B visas are for technology work. It may not technically be "tech only" but in practice it may as well be.

>an area that we can infer is generally less desirable to live Lower cost of living does not mean the area is undesirable to live. Building adequate housing supply (I know, unheard of in the Bay, but some cities do it) can cause cost of living to stay low. A major weakness of this policy is that it doesn't scale by regional median salary. Under exigency a company in SF could easily pay $130k to bring in a foreign wor…

[deleted]

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#310

Post by sage76 »

Retric wrote: post #139
542458 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. Wow, that's a really important point. I'm so in the tech-news bubble that I'd never heard anybody say that before - thanks for pointing that out!

I disagree. If you are not willing to pay 100k then finding someone is not the problem. You just don't want to pay market rates. The point of H-1B is when salary is not the problem. PS: Remember, someone on an H-1B can leave your employment. Paying market rates is supposed to keep that from happening, thus the intent is to remove a shortage not lower pay.

This. I don't understand why some people think companies are entitled to get people for whatever wage they seem fit. If you can't afford it, tough luck. Let market forces decide what people are to be paid.
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