How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance • Hacker News Board

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#251

Post by msabalau » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

devmunchies wrote: post #185

msabalau wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "nation" typically means a collection of people with a common culture and ethnicity. The "Poles" are a nation, Poland is a state. That's why the the term nation-state exists, and contrasts with, say, empires composed of multiple nations. Canada, for example, traditionally described as a binational state, is now typically identified as a multicultural state, with some Québécois disliking the change in emphasi…

America absolutely has a culture. Have you never lived in another country? Our houses, cars, schools, music, food, pass times, athletics, language (slang, dialects), entertainment, government, habits, communication (verbal, body language), aspirations, societal expectations, humor, things we find offensive/inoffensive, etc.

Britain has a culture, despite being composed of the English, Scots, and Welsh nations as well as many immigrants.

One can, of course, feel entirely free to use words in arbitrary ways. But to correct someone (who clearly understands the correct usage of the term nation) with the nonsensical notion of a nation imposing taxes is odd.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#252

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

nanistheonlyist wrote: post #192

Which is why trump is keeping out the invaders.

Historical misconception: Rome was not destroyed by barbarians at the gates, it was destroyed by barbarians inside the gates, hired as mercenary replacements for military regulars. Once the gold dried up, they sacked their former clients or simply left to find other work, leaving many Roman regions sparsely defended.

You analogy does not hold up.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#253

Post by elastic_church » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

whatever_dude wrote: post #56

hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

> If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd.

Thats the POINT. Today it would be absurd, but a successful multipronged plan to bring both manufacturing as well as constricting supply of people with specialized skills, would raise the salary demands of the whole US population.

The H1B salary part of the system hasn't been modified since 1989. $60,000 in 1989 is equivalent to $120,000 in today's dollars. Does that influence your opinion at all?

Congress created a rationale back then, the industry merely used the tools available since then. Congress' rationale did not change, they are both adjusting for inflation as well as responding to the direction the industry actually went. The industry's adaptation is incongruent with the will of Congress.

In 1989 salary increases were still keeping up with the cost of housing. Or were still expecting to. For example. And a protectionist America really could do that again.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#254

Post by waqf » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #243

googletazer wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they can't afford to run. I'd also love to bring say professional 3D modellers and animators from Eastern Europe or Brazil and pay then 20k CAD/year, but thats not how reality works. All of these programs (hb1/etc...) are basically wage arbitrage schemes and have little to do with presence/absence of talent.

There is no universal H1B salary. Translators do not earn as much as developers, in general. People living in Alabama do not earn as much as those working in Silicon Valley, in general. H1B applications go through a "labor condition application" for this exact reason - the government approves the salary, based on industry and location. Therefore, you can't bring 3D developers to Silicon Valley and pay them $20k. But…

Ok, what is the aim of the H1B program? You appear to have raised that question, and then shied away from that phrasing in your answer.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#255

Post by ghurtado » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #186

jacquesm wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early America was full of Native Americans and they didn't need those immigrants at all. The people that needed the skilled laborers were immigrants themselves. By the way, the very best way to stop immigration is to make other countries wealthy.

You're being intentionally obtuse. Sure, the Native Americans would have gotten along fine with bows and horses. But we are discussing the economy. The growth the US economy throughout its history was driven heavily by immigration.

> You're being intentionally obtuse

Side note, but every time I see someone online accusing someone else of being "intentionally obtuse" I stop reading immediately. You know nothing of the intentions of a stranger who's obviously willing to openly discuss an issue with you.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#256

Post by mc32 » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #117

devmunchies wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's how America got populated in the first place This isn't 1910. We are the top 5 in the world in population. We don't need as much immigration as we used to. Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works.

America never needed immigration, not since the first European landed there. Historically immigration has initially always been to the advantage of the immigrant, only later does the balance shift the other way and do subsequent generations contribute substantially to the bottom line. > Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works. First of all, th…

It helps if you're clear in you writing. When people say America they refer to the republic, they typically neither mean colonial America nor pre-European contact first nations. But in this discussion, you're using the term for all three distinct meanings.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#257

Post by jessespears » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #213

refurb wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're argument is that it's impossible for their to be an actual shortage of US workers unless the salary exceed $100K?

Yes, in the same way as there is no shortage of Bugatti Veyron for 100k. They simply cost more than that. We live in a capitalist society where price is how you communicate demand. Now, if you are willing to pay X times median wage in the US and still can't find people then perhaps there is an argument. But, saying you can't find people when you are not willing to go that far suggests you are not willing to pay marke…

The upper bound isn't limited by the number of dollars in circulation. The upper bound is limited by what's economically feasible. The outcome of the theoretical Alabama community college language teacher is that the language program just gets cut. The fees for a niche program wouldn't support a highly-paid faculty member.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#258

Post by Paul-ish » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

rtkwe wrote: post #198

coredog64 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt that would open the door to all manner of skullduggery. Infosys then opens a new operation in West Armpit, Alabama and their employees now make 150% of the going rate for Java developers there in West Armpit. It is just a weird quirk that said employees wind up doing lots of travel...

There's a few fixes to that too. Make the pay scaling regional or put in provisions that increase the floor based on percentage travel or where the visa job would work.

This is how laws get really complicated. Wouldn't a more complex solution end up costing more (to the companies you are trying to help) than a simple solution?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#259

Post by ghurtado » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

lineindc wrote: post #249

jacquesm wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Found the insulting novelty account. Please do not do this. Thank you.

It was sarcasm, as the /s indicates. If you didn't like the joke downvote and move on.

1. "/s" -> those two characters are not a "get out of jail free card" that allows you to behave without respect and decorum.

2. On HN, flagging a comment like yours is a much more appropriate response than downvote. Maybe once you've had enough of our comments removed you'll start to understand the etiquette around here, but there's easier ways to fit in.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#260

Post by Retric » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

jessespears wrote: post #257

Retric wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in the same way as there is no shortage of Bugatti Veyron for 100k. They simply cost more than that. We live in a capitalist society where price is how you communicate demand. Now, if you are willing to pay X times median wage in the US and still can't find people then perhaps there is an argument. But, saying you can't find people when you are not willing to go that far suggests you are not willing to pay marke…

The upper bound isn't limited by the number of dollars in circulation. The upper bound is limited by what's economically feasible. The outcome of the theoretical Alabama community college language teacher is that the language program just gets cut. The fees for a niche program wouldn't support a highly-paid faculty member.

> the language program just gets cut.

And then what? Yes, an Alabama community collage can't pay for a language teacher, that's a fairly normal problem for community collages. It does not suggest there is somehow a market failure.

PS: I think you miss understood my upper bound. I doubt people want an immigration policy based on filling any jobs that pays more than ~30k/year.