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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#581

Post by [deleted] »

davexunit wrote: post #580
MicroBerto wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is everyone here forgetting the millions given by foreign nations?? The outright collusion with media? The lack of sensitivity to LGBT rights? The fact that they never discussed how to actually solve the Nation's problems, only worked on crafting a message to the public, and having "public and private" policies? The family connections to Russia that everyone conveniently ignores lately? Or most chilling of all, the c…

When the alternative is Hitler, you pick Hillary.

[deleted]

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#582

Post by gkoberger »

iaw wrote: post #498
saycheese wrote: post #145

>> "More than a million supporters of Edward Snowden have petitioned President Barack Obama to pardon him, but the former National Security Agency contractor hasn't submitted the required documents for clemency, according to the White House." Source: http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/17/politics/snowden-no-clemency-r... Forms: https://www.justice.gov/pardon/application-forms ____ EDIT: Appears the only way to contact Ed is…

I agree with the Manning pardon, I don't think Snowden deserves a pardon. Manning's motives and understanding of what she was doing is worlds different than Snowden's. Snowden sought a position to access more information for his leaks and he leaked information on valid espionage programs along side the unconstitutional ones. Let him live out his days in Russia, he paid for it with intelligence.

To play devil's advocate: Snowden took documents for a specific reason (to reveal US surveillance), and turned it over to legitimate journalists to decide what to release. Manning grabbed anything she could get her hands on, and uploaded it all to the world.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#583

Post by tropo »

baddox wrote: post #199
rthomas6 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed feelings on this. Manning did commit a crime. They were entrusted with classified information and they released it on purpose. For all of the corruption and wrongdoing the release of those cables uncovered, didn't it also do things like give away the positions of some undercover agents? And harm US diplomatic relations with other countries? Look at it from the POV of the government: How could they not pu…

According to this article, the prosecution failed to provide evidence that anyone was killed due to the leaks. I don't know if anyone was harmed , but it really doesn't seem like it.

Muammar Gaddafi, obviously.

There are/were several other leaders nearby who also suffered.

Along with them, the resulting violent conflict killed plenty more.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#584

Post by tropo »

rtkwe wrote: post #244
rand77763 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The POV of the government should be nothing more than the POV of the people.

That's a shay position given how wrong a majority of the country has been at various times in history. Forced school desegregation was wildly unpopular in a lot of the country (even the north) but it was the right thing to do, some issues shouldn't be left to the whims of a populace. It also treats the view of the people as a singular entity when it's vastly fractured and multifaceted.

Forced school desegregation is not active for most kids. Many people buy into expensive school districts. Cupertino, Mountain View, Palo Alto, and other fine cities are not exactly desegregated. Even in more mixed areas, the school zones are seldom mixed. Then, for those without the money to isolate themselves by zip code, there is homeschooling. Kids do not get bused from one homeschooling family to another.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#585

Post by notpc »

burkaman wrote: post #176
notpc wrote: post #18

Manning indiscriminately leaked tons of diplomatic cables, as part of a personal vendetta against the US Army. It is without contention that the vast majority of the leaked cables revealed nothing that anyone considers wrongdoing. This wasn't the act of a whistle blower. It was the cowardly act of someone who put their own petty fantasies ahead of their solemn duty to protect the information they were entrusted with…

What do you think is the appropriate sentence for this crime?

35 years with the possibility of parole in 10 years seemed pretty reasonable to me.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#586

Post by kidcoach »

notpc wrote: post #492
kidcoach wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am talking about tone, not substance.

It's troubling that calling for witch hunts and firings over political opinions is okay, but a direct tone is a problem. Maybe our society would be better if that was flipped around.

Society already is that "flipped around" scenario, there are thousands of places on the web where you can yell and call people idiots/fascists/libtards/whatever. Have you ever seen it be productive ? Change people's minds on important issues ? No. To effect change you have to have respect and compassion for the person who's mind you are trying to change.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#587

Post by astronautjones »

hackuser wrote: post #67
notpc wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been reported in the news for the last month that Obama has no intention of retiring from public life. He's going to be a major spokesman and "spiritual leader" of sorts for the Democrats going forward. The reason is that the Democrats don't have a good "bench." Most of the Democrats remaining in positions of power are creatures of big-city machine politics, not exactly likable populists who can counter Trump.

> The reason is that the Democrats don't have a good "bench." Obama led the Democrats to political disaster; I wonder if any party since WWII has been in as bad a political position. Why would they want his continued leadership after he leaves office?

No, the DNC led the Democrats to political disaster by discouraging anyone other than HRC from running, and running an atrociously hubris-filled campaign

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#588

Post by copperx »

cowardlydragon wrote: post #103
djsumdog wrote: post #32

Seven years is still a long time for whistle blowing. I'm glad to see she is still getting released though. It's important to note commuting the sentence is not a pardon. Chelsea will still have this conviction for the rest of her life. I know there is a lot of controversy with Manning compared to Wikileaks et. al. as far as not redacting documents or using a discriminating news source to filter them. Still, I oppose…

7 years isolation, not just 7 years

Woah, still enough to make anyone go insane.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#589

Post by gozur88 »

kafkaesq wrote: post #565
gozur88 wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody knows what you say to a diplomat from any country is going to get written down. But there's always been a tacit agreement that not everything gets shared with the world. And I think you're mostly jumping at shadows here. Diplomacy is a lot less interesting and less nefarious than you seem to believe.

Diplomacy is a lot less interesting and less nefarious than you seem to believe. About 95% of it, yes. But if the other 5% were so profoundly uninteresting then people wouldn't be talking about how "embarrassing" and "damaging" it was to have it released.

This is a business about people. You can have information that's not "embarrassing" or "damaging" to the US that's both embarrassing and damaging to individuals in other countries.

Again, there's a practical side here. As I asked in another post, just how much would you share with a friend or family member that was going to immediately run to publish what you said in a Facebook post? Because that's essentially what Manning did.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#590

Post by tropo »

HerraBRE wrote: post #155
cm2187 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whistle blowing requires the knowledge of wrong doing, and exposing these wrong doings. As far as I am aware that guy leaked the data in bulk without looking at it, and without any knowledge of the US diplomacy, and the leaks didn't expose any major wrongdoing. Only some gory videos, that don't really teach us anything (everyone knows bombs make "collateral damages", the US army even maintains statistics on them). An…

The "collateral murder" video, which was based on Manning's leaks, is really quite chilling and definitely shows wrong doings that were then covered up by the government. There was more, but this was the most visual/memorable. I suggest you turn your scepticism to 11 and go watch it, see if you still feel the same way. https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/ (warning: if watching civilians, journalists and children b…

So, it's war. And??? The video:

We see a guy carrying what looks like a rocket launcher. (it's a really really long telephoto lens) He is sneaking around with the enemy (sort of an embedded journalist) and peaking out from around corners, appearing to point a rocket launcher at the US military. Unsurprisingly, he gets blown to bits.

We see an enemy hop over a wall while getting shot at. A minivan stops to get him. Note that it was common for the enemy to transport people and weapons in similar vehicles. People who are not involved in the conflict would be nuts to be driving around in the battlefield. The minivan is thus also shot up. It happens to contain kids... so some child abuser brought kids to a battlefield, WTF.

Note that the unedited (long) version of the video shows some of the "victims" carrying weapons. This wasn't an intentional slaughter of innocents, even if a few innocents did stupidly wander into a battlefield and get killed.

If you call this "murder", you might as well call all war murder. That's a very political position to be taking. War sucks; this shouldn't be news to anybody.

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