Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

571–580 of 797 posts

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#571

Post by ForrestN »

and0 wrote: post #186
ForrestN wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what Chelsea Manning's pronoun preferences are, but I have plenty of friends who prefer "they," which also happens to be the gender-neutral singular pronoun in English. For example: "Someone came by asking for me earlier? Did they give you a name?" Many people who do not identify as male or female prefer "they."

That's a valid point, but if you don't know enough about Chelsea Manning's recent history or prison sentence to know her preferred pronoun (or even read the article where it's made very clear) why even comment?

Some of my trans/genderqueer friends go through long periods wherein they change their preferred pronouns, so when I don't know someone personally I try use "they" whenever I can in deference to the complexity of trans/queer experiences. My husband identifies as a man, but sometimes prefers to be referred to as "they," for example in all professional contexts. (They're an artist).

Since I don't know Chelsea personally, and because they're also in what must be a deeply traumatic and confusing situation, replete with pressure to conform to newly acceptable narratives of transition like "man becomes woman," I think I instinctively wanted to use "they" in acknowledgment that we probably can't know for sure what would make them comfortable and happy from our present vantage, news reports aside. If I for some reason meet them one day, I'll be sure to confirm with them what they prefer.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#572

Post by mongmong »

MicroBerto wrote: post #558
afterburner wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the Hillary e-mails are actually very chilling when you start reading through them" What chilled you, specifically?

Is everyone here forgetting the millions given by foreign nations?? The outright collusion with media? The lack of sensitivity to LGBT rights? The fact that they never discussed how to actually solve the Nation's problems, only worked on crafting a message to the public, and having "public and private" policies? The family connections to Russia that everyone conveniently ignores lately? Or most chilling of all, the c…

All that tells me is she was a politician playing the political game. Or do you think it is mutually exclusive to play politics and caring about doing good things with power? Do you think emails between Sanders campaign staff would not be discussing talking points and tactics if their campaign emails were leaked?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#573

Post by ForrestN »

manarth wrote: post #355
gnaritas wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? You can't expect people to know that, this whole preferred pronoun issue is nonsense; you do not have a right to tell other people which words they should use.

You can't expect people to know that I shared the link, so that people who weren't aware of Chelsea's preferred pronouns, could learn which pronouns she preferred. this whole preferred pronoun issue is nonsense; you do not have a right to tell other people which words they should use. You're right to say that in general, I cannot control the words that people use, about me, or about others. But I do respect the choic…

Yes. I would add that, at least in present cultural conditions, most people who are not cisgendered men or women are not treated well, are chronically misunderstood, and experience traumatic alienation from their surrounding culture, and even violence. Generally speaking we're not yet able to protect non-cis people nearly as well as we should. So in addition to the parent's clear and solid advice, please have some empathy. Respecting a person's wishes about referring to their identity can go a long way toward making them feel safe, and refusing to do so can add to a tremendous burden of pain.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#574

Post by MicroBerto »

mongmong wrote: post #572
MicroBerto wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is everyone here forgetting the millions given by foreign nations?? The outright collusion with media? The lack of sensitivity to LGBT rights? The fact that they never discussed how to actually solve the Nation's problems, only worked on crafting a message to the public, and having "public and private" policies? The family connections to Russia that everyone conveniently ignores lately? Or most chilling of all, the c…

All that tells me is she was a politician playing the political game. Or do you think it is mutually exclusive to play politics and caring about doing good things with power? Do you think emails between Sanders campaign staff would not be discussing talking points and tactics if their campaign emails were leaked?

I'm upset enough that our politicians take monstrous amounts of money from corporate lobbyists... let alone foreign nations in questionable areas!! That part is unforgivable.

Justify it however you want, there was some very chilling revelations in those emails. I want politicians solving problems, not building press angles.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#575

Post by grzm »

etjossem wrote: post #553
grzm wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the MLK quote! I agree with the spirit of it, and personally struggle to understand where the balance is between order and justice. though I think there's a meaningful distinction to be made between "set a timetable for another man's freedom" and trying to figure out what ways are effective in making change. I'm not encouraging anyone to wait. I'm encouraging people to do what's effective. MLK was also ver…

A downvote, whether it's because of tone or message, is a way to say "this comment has no place here." Enough of them concentrated on one message will censor it from everyone else's view. All I ask is that we be careful about using that tool, particularly against a "freedom from" position that has historically been given few venues. I believe trans people should have freedom from misgendering, because being in an env…

I understand where you're coming from. I likewise want people to feel like they can discuss issues that are important to them. And I can also understand why people often respond passionately and possibly uncivilly in response to what they perceive (and sometimes objectively is) incivility. That said, I don't agree with it. It's just not effective in the vast majority of cases, and I see the severe polarization in the US as partly due to this lack of civil, charitable discourse.

Would you and I be able to have continued this discussion (which I feel is civil and constructive, and I thank you for that) if we weren't taking care with how we express ourselves? I personally doubt it. For my part, I haven't felt that I've gotten heated or needed to restrain myself or rephrase for tone (as opposed to clarity), which I most definitely have in other discussions on divisive issues (in this case the role of civility in discussion of contentious issues). I sincerely hope you feel similarly, even if you ultimately disagree with what I've said.

Regarding downvoting: I believe it's off-topic here to discuss the proper use of downvoting. There's plenty of that to be found on HN already. In my comment above I'm describing the behavior I see: the positive as opposed to the normative. I do have opinions on the matter, but they're similarly off-topic.

I'm not sure what else I have to add on the topic of civility and discussion. I often reference the Principle of Charity[0] and Rapoport's Rules[1] as I personally find them useful in guiding my approach to discussion. Thanks again for your thoughtful discussion. I appreciate it.

[0]: http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html

[1]: https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapo...

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#576

Post by grzm »

uybiuubfdui wrote: post #555
adrienne wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Misgendering people is uncivil . It is insulting and dehumanizing. Why don't you start requiring civilty from your fellow HN commenters, rather than just me?

You come off as an extremely immature person.

Please don't create accounts to take swipes at people.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#577

Post by hackinthebochs »

etjossem wrote: post #556
hackinthebochs wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I read his statement and its definitely interesting. It doesn't really help his case though. Some of his actions he was acting as a whistleblower (releasing videos of civilian deaths), other actions he was acting as someone who simply felt information should be leaked (diplomatic cables and such). The problem is that these were separate acts and so while he may have been a whistleblower for some of the releases,…

I would argue Snowden's approach - working with the most reputable news outlets in the US to release only what was necessary - serves as a good example of ethical whistleblowing. Nonetheless, the intelligence community wanted him arrested after the NSA slides went public, and he will still be arrested if he sets foot back in the United States. Whistleblowers in the US government can and do go to prison, regardless of…

I think 7 years is plenty although I don't think anyone should have to suffer solitary for any reason.

And yeah I generally just avoid using the pronoun or use she when forced to. But the article you linked had pictures of "him" at the bottom and so using he was unconscious.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#578

Post by dnautics »

lione wrote: post #480
stvswn wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the date of Manning's release (May 17th) is international LGBT day

Or, as they say in the article, that's 4 months from now, a somewhat reasonable time (considering it could have been 28 years and 4 months) to finish everything up, get her affairs on the outside settled, and all the bureaucracy done.

the commutation could have been done 2 months ago to allow for reasonable time. Also, it's not like the president doesn't have the resources or authority to accelerate it. Pardon my cynicism, but (not that I have any sympathy for the incoming president) it seems more like a political ploy to put the incoming president in a conflict where the president is tempted to do something deeply unethical to be politically consistent.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#579

Post by nyolfen »

ivraatiems wrote: post #360
cdubzzz wrote: post #254

> “Mr. Snowden fled into the arms of an adversary, and has sought refuge in a country that most recently made a concerted effort to undermine confidence in our democracy.” What an amazingly loaded statement that is. Russia is just a straight up "adversary" now? Infuriating.

> Russia is just a straight up "adversary" now? Infuriating. ...in this context, when were they not an adversary?

there is no obvious reason for russia to be considered an "adversary" versus merely a competing regional power in the absence of the ideological conflict of the cold war

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#580

Post by davexunit »

MicroBerto wrote: post #558
afterburner wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the Hillary e-mails are actually very chilling when you start reading through them" What chilled you, specifically?

Is everyone here forgetting the millions given by foreign nations?? The outright collusion with media? The lack of sensitivity to LGBT rights? The fact that they never discussed how to actually solve the Nation's problems, only worked on crafting a message to the public, and having "public and private" policies? The family connections to Russia that everyone conveniently ignores lately? Or most chilling of all, the c…

When the alternative is Hitler, you pick Hillary.
Post reply on HN