Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is Europe Disintegrating?

nybooks.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 182 posts

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#171

Post by majewsky »

badwulf wrote: post #168

> What Orbán has done, for example in his takeover of the media, undermines democracy itself. Those of us who actually lived in Hungary know that the media needs to be regulated to prevent the media from picking our next president. Orbán was the first politician who had the balls to call out the West on their irresponsible immigration policy, while everyone else was too busy being politically correct. The Austrian me…

> Those of us who actually lived in Hungary know that the media needs to be regulated to prevent the media from picking our next president.

So it's better if the president picks the next president?

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#172

Post by majewsky »

bostand wrote: post #17
DrNuke wrote: post #9

European Union is not working because too many different economies are in the eurozone. I was a fervent Pro-EU, now realising a federation of independent countries might work better than a superstate.

EU in its simplest form is harmonization of rules and a bigger market for you to sell your goods. That part works exceptionally well. I don't see a single reason where that could be a negative in a mid to long term. The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part.

> The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part.

Not all of them. I recall that the countries that joined after 2000 have a clause in their accession treaties that forces them to join the euro-zone once certain economic indicators pass certain thresholds.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#173

Post by nommm-nommm »

dkb wrote: post #85
nommm-nommm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your house/building analogy is flawed because there are extremely significant rules/regulations about what your house can look like and what materials you can use to build it leveed by all sorts of levels of government as well as HOAs. Doubly so if you live in a historical neighborhood. And somehow people do manage to live in skyscrapers without flooding the first floor. I'm not sure if anyone ever attempted a curren…

OK. I could start debating about HOAs and skyscrapers but I won't. I think people who read that metaphor understood what lays under it... Which is, the idea that you cannot take 28 countries who have a different History, different values, different interests, different language, different way of thinking, and ask them to all obey to the same rules and put them under the same constraints.

The metaphor is extremely poor because you can't "do whatever you want" with your house. In fact you are extremely limited with what you can do with your house.

Real life example: I can't put an extension on the front of my house because it's prescribed that my house must be set back from the road X feet. I can't build a third story because the max is two stories in my neighborhood. I can't bulldoze my house and build a duplex as my lot, as well as entire neighborhood, is zoned single family. I can't buy a 3000 square foot lot and build a house, my city says all houses have to have at least a 5000 square foot lot. I can't even leave my garbage can outside unless it's garbage day.

And I don't even have an HOA!

There's no "debate," you can't come even close to doing what you want to your house and you never could. And you know what, for the most part, everyone who lives here is happy with it.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#174

Post by AnimalMuppet »

walterstucco wrote: post #88
blibble wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what? Sweden joined in 1995. Denmark and the UK are examples of other EU states that were not communist that do not use the Euro

UK has never been EU. Sweden was among the founder states when Euro was born, not the original states forming EEC in 1957. Denmark is in ERM-II and its Krone has a EU controlled exchange rate against euro. It is possible to be outside euro, but not advisable, the main market for the east non-euro countries is the EU zone, if euro falls down, their fragile economies will follow.

> UK has never been EU.

What? I'm trying to find any context where that statement makes sense, and I can't do so.

UK has never used the Euro, but that's not what "EU" means.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#175

Post by dogma1138 »

ralfn wrote: post #167
dogma1138 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't confuse individual racism with national identity. To be a French or Dutch is very different than being an American. No one is pretending that the US is some paradise without prejudice but once you take the oath of allegiance you are an American regardless of your background.

As a dutch person ive heard this complaint as well. Although we dont really understand how it comes they dont feel like Dutch, the remark is common enough that there has to be something there. I do want to add that strong social security doesnt seem to help with integration. I think part of the success of the US together with generational patience, is that to make a living you have to play along. So any economic mism…

It should not be taken as a complaint, it's just what it is.

New world nations were founded on the premise of immigration and building a better world for yourself, people joke about the American dream but to some extent that is true.

Being an American or even a Canadian is more about the future and what you make out of yourself.

Being Dutch, German, French or Italian or many other nations is more about the past, you are who you are based on where you come from.

I'm not sure that this can change, nor do I necessarily think it should change, every nation and every nationality has it's own unique definition many of those are based on shared heritage and history which is tied to ethnic and familial roots. It's "easy" to become a Dutch citizen but it's nearly impossible to become a Dutch national, in the US there is very little distinction since virtually everyone there is a migrant at some point or another, and while if we go back to the stone age you may also call European migrants for the US it's much more recent history. The majority of the US population is 5 or less generations "American", compare it to the average Dutch or French native family and you get quite a different story.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#176

Post by planck01 »

bjelkeman-again wrote: post #56
muninn_ wrote: post #7

You can't have short-term, mass migration without having something happen or change. We will see a huge change in European political landscape within the next few years. People have to slowly assimilate into a culture in order to allow for a gradual, peaceful change in that culture. Shocking these types of systems with any sort of migration is a recipient for instability. Please keep in mind that this isn't any sort…

The US takes in about a million legal immigrants per year [1], the EU took in 1.6 million immigrants from non EU countries in 2014 [2]. The US has a population of 320 million, and the EU has 508 million. So the immigration is about the same per capita. So I think it should be possible to deal with that. [1] https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2015/tab... [2[ http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-exp…

Immigration (actually refugees) went up massively in 2015 and 2016 because of what happened in syria.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#177

Post by planck01 »

muninn_ wrote: post #7

You can't have short-term, mass migration without having something happen or change. We will see a huge change in European political landscape within the next few years. People have to slowly assimilate into a culture in order to allow for a gradual, peaceful change in that culture. Shocking these types of systems with any sort of migration is a recipient for instability. Please keep in mind that this isn't any sort…

I don't think immigration is the main reason people have anti-eu sentiments.

More problematic is the forced integration of diverse cultures and diverse economic backgrounds who don't speak the same language. Also there is a lot of obvious financial waste in its centre, lots of lobbyism and poor democratic safeguards. People, including me, feel they have no influence at all and a lot of the de decisions being made are not in the personen peoples interest. Massive immigration issues only examplify those issues.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#178

Post by matteuan »

rbanffy wrote: post #140
matteuan wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First "un-elected and un-accountable bureaucracy" is wrong. The parliament is elected directly and the decision-making is not less democratic than any other member state. Some problems and an example do not make the EU a failure. The economical and social advantages of EU have been already significant. If you were not the 'sophisticate' troll that I think you are, I would have spend more time trying to explaining you…

I keep having to point out that most of the criticism is based on false information and propaganda. The EU has done a really poor job with informing the public how it works.

I agree with you, another problem is that 'how EU works' is still changing and evolving a lot. The Treaty of Lisbon is 'only' 10 years old

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#179

Post by matteuan »

dkb wrote: post #126
matteuan wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European laws exist mostly for matters that concern everybody. Every member state can have its own set of rules. >Not to mention that countries who are not in the EU, but are in Europe, are doing way better on a lot of aspects This does not mean that being part of EU has something to do with it. For example, if you want to say Norway, you should compare it with Sweden or Finland, not with Portugal or Bulgaria.

Of course it exists for matters that concern everybody. Who said it's not? The problem is that those laws are not modifiable because you need the unanimity of all the countries in the EU. Which is extremely difficult because, again, all the 28 countries have different interests in all areas of the treaty. It's basically stuck. As far as you saying that every member state can have its own set of rules, no. We had this…

> The problem is that those laws are not modifiable because you need the unanimity of all the countries in the EU. Which is extremely difficult because, again, all the 28 countries have different interests in all areas of the treaty. It's basically stuck.

This is inaccurate. Most of the laws are produced in an ordinary way. The unanimity (of the Council) is required only in some cases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_E...

> As far as you saying that every member state can have its own set of rules, no. We had this issue multiple times and found ourselves having to pay insane amount of penalties because we were not, for example, accepting to grow GMO in France. If the EU says "You guys should do this and that in that matter", we can't have a rule that goes against that. That is the real problem, I think that the people of each individual country do not decide anymore, and the people in charge have no power, since they cannot take their own decisions.

That 'problem' is the same for every modern democracy. We continuously have to accept decisions that are made democratically, but they are just stupid (e.g. Brexit).

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#180

Post by vilmosi »

dogma1138 wrote: post #166
mattm wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the moment you arrive regardless of who you are or where you come from (to some degree) you are an American Unless you were Irish, Italian, Jewish, African, Middle Eastern, Muslim, Japanese, Mexican... Don't pretend that the US is somehow morally superior in the way they have treated immigrants in the past and tidy.

Don't confuse individual racism with national identity. To be a French or Dutch is very different than being an American. No one is pretending that the US is some paradise without prejudice but once you take the oath of allegiance you are an American regardless of your background.

>>> Don't confuse individual racism with national identity

I don't believe he's talking about individual racism but systematic racism employed by the US government, which historically preferred people from a certain background.

Italians and Irish people weren't even considered white. Chinatowns were basically invented in the US because Asian immigrants wouldn't (or not allowed to) integrate.

Post reply on HN