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Is Europe Disintegrating?

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Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#71

Post by kuschku »

bostand wrote: post #59
stale2002 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! Give back control of borders to countries, and just run the EU like a NAFTA free trade zone. Bam, best of both worlds!

Oh yes, the "EU, give us back control of our borders" rhetoric. Your CAN have border control right now, in fact many northern European countries have border control among themselves today.

Actually, that kinda changed in September 2016 – because in the refugee crisis the countries were unable to control the outer EU borders properly, the EU got control of the national borders in September 2016, with the establishment of a European Border and Coast Guard: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/...

EDIT: I can’t respond to your comment, but please read the article.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#72

Post by padthai »

joepvd wrote: post #49
sean_patel wrote: post #5

> For now there is crisis and disintegration wherever I look: the eurozone is chronically dysfunctional, sunlit Athens is plunged into misery, young Spaniards with doctorates are reduced to serving as waiters in London or Berlin, the children of Portuguese friends seek work in Brazil and Angola How much truth is there, to this statement i.e. "young Spaniards with PHDs are serving as Waiters in London or Berlin." Anyo…

Resident of Berlin here. Cannot dismiss this statement completely. At the height of the crisis in Spain, there was a noticable influx of Spanish people in a first-move-then-job situation. Most of them did not speak German, quite some also had troubles with English, despite education. The Spanish presence is less visible now, I am guessing because some left, and the others got better integrated. Would not be surpised…

This is what I have noticed too. It is a way to start living in the country and then get a job (specially a entry-level job). Also to improve their fluency in the language of that particular country. UK is specially popular because they speak English.

A minority of those well educated people might get stuck, though.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#73

Post by alphonsegaston »

Europe is learning the same thing that the United States did in its early days: it's impossible for a union of disparate states to survive without strong, overarching federal authority. It's as unpalatable to member states now as it was to the original colonies, but the alternative is to be subsumed by some outside, more centrally organized power. The Russians understand this, which is why they work to encourage nationalism among EU members. Once the infighting has weakened everyone, they can swoop into the vacuum and become this central authority.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#74

Post by walterstucco »

stale2002 wrote: post #38
api wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question: what is the primary grievance against the EU?

Open borders. Just keep the free trade stuff, but allow countries to control their own borders and things would be good.

No, they won't. You can't cherry pick in this situation. You got free movement in EU because of the Bosman ruling, it's the law, everything less than that is a step back and we can't afford steps back. It's like when your girlfriend asks for some space. It's the beginning of the end and. nothing good can come out of it.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#75

Post by mpweiher »

yellow_viper wrote: post #26
mpweiher wrote: post #3

No. Pro EU sentiment increased markedly in pretty much all of Europe post-Brexit[1], and hopefully national politicians will stop playing the silly "do bad/unpopular things and then blame them on the EU"-game. This game was thought to be without cost, now it is clear that it is not, and the ones who played it most extensively are paying the biggest price. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/08/brexit-cause…

Yes anti-EU rhetoric went down post-Brexit. But it's still very high, and will likely continue to rise once Brexit is settled. It's clear >and hopefully national politicians will stop They won't.

> Yes anti-EU rhetoric went down post-Brexit.

Nope, anti-EU rhetoric went up. It just wasn't effective as pro-EU sentiment in the population rose (from mostly already high baselines).

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#76

Post by dkb »

nommm-nommm wrote: post #62
dkb wrote: post #42

Interesting article. I do believe that the EU will collapse, and that it is only a matter of time. First of all, there is not a single instance in History where a common currency, such as the Euro, succeeded. It always has collapsed. Different people in France have developed about this exact subject. I believe that more and more people are in favor of existing the EU. In the case of France, the first thing that peopl…

Your house/building analogy is flawed because there are extremely significant rules/regulations about what your house can look like and what materials you can use to build it leveed by all sorts of levels of government as well as HOAs. Doubly so if you live in a historical neighborhood. And somehow people do manage to live in skyscrapers without flooding the first floor. I'm not sure if anyone ever attempted a curren…

You are not sure that anyone every attempted that? How about the Soviet Ruble with the USSR? I think that is the last one to date...before the Euro.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#77

Post by krona »

kristianc wrote: post #21
bostand wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU in its simplest form is harmonization of rules and a bigger market for you to sell your goods. That part works exceptionally well. I don't see a single reason where that could be a negative in a mid to long term. The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part.

The problem is that it's exceptionally difficult to have 1/ that functions well without 2/ The Euro was designed as a bulwark against currency speculators and people trying to arbitrage between imbalances in the different European economies.

And the effect is an insolvent banking system, mass unemployment in southern Europe and an inflation 'Horror-Kurve' in Germany. In effect, It's creating even larger imbalances than those it was trying to avoid.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#78

Post by vivekd »

drawnwren wrote: post #57
vivekd wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My own country, Canada, seems to be doing a good job, and I'm not sure but I think we have even higher immigration rates than Europe or the United States and we're still a fairly liberal, progressive and integrated society. I think our secret is selective immigration, we are much more selective than Europe in regards to who we let into the country and we don't have the illegal immigration issue on the scale that Amer…

I would be very surprised if total (legal and illegal) Canadian immigration is anywhere close to US or Europe. Do you have any numbers to back this claim?

immigration "rates"

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#79

Post by matteuan »

MarcusBrutus wrote: post #24

It most definitely is and it takes a very starry eyed sort of person to expect otherwise. The idea that 20 or so different people with different languages, religions, mores, histories, frames of reference, economies could somehow achieve monetary or much less political union under the rule of an un-elected and un-accountable bureaucracy of "commissioners" who rule by means of "directives" (you couldn't make it sound…

First "un-elected and un-accountable bureaucracy" is wrong. The parliament is elected directly and the decision-making is not less democratic than any other member state. Some problems and an example do not make the EU a failure. The economical and social advantages of EU have been already significant. If you were not the 'sophisticate' troll that I think you are, I would have spend more time trying to explaining you this.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#80

Post by bostand »

kuschku wrote: post #71
bostand wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes, the "EU, give us back control of our borders" rhetoric. Your CAN have border control right now, in fact many northern European countries have border control among themselves today.

Actually, that kinda changed in September 2016 – because in the refugee crisis the countries were unable to control the outer EU borders properly, the EU got control of the national borders in September 2016, with the establishment of a European Border and Coast Guard: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/... EDIT: I can’t respond to your comment, but please read the article.

Nope, EU countries have always had the possibility of border control (with some limitations).

Its just that not having border control is cheaper and allowing people work across birders is good for the economy. So basically until late 2016 the pros outweighed the cons.

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