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Is Europe Disintegrating?

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Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#31

Post by artursapek »

api wrote: post #14
Mikeb85 wrote: post #2

Based on my recent experience of visiting Europe - yes, it is. I stayed mostly in France, was there during the Brexit vote, and everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU, voting right-wing, and seeing it all crumble. They also have several separatist movements, especially in Brittany, which seems to be more anti-EU than anti-French...

Question: what is the primary grievance against the EU?

I don't know about primary, but I think a big one is the EU forcing countries to meet a quota of "refugee" immigration.

Poland for example is refusing to accept these immigrants and paying a pretty big fine for each one they turn away [1]. Other countries like France and Germany are buckling to the pressure from the EU and accepting them, and we've all seen how well that has worked out for them.

So I think not having to take this crap from the EU is one attractive reason to leave.

[1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poland-refuse...

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#32

Post by maxerickson »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #2

Based on my recent experience of visiting Europe - yes, it is. I stayed mostly in France, was there during the Brexit vote, and everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU, voting right-wing, and seeing it all crumble. They also have several separatist movements, especially in Brittany, which seems to be more anti-EU than anti-French...

How many people did you speak to?

Were many of them associated with each other for one reason or another?

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#33

Post by bostand »

kristianc wrote: post #21
bostand wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU in its simplest form is harmonization of rules and a bigger market for you to sell your goods. That part works exceptionally well. I don't see a single reason where that could be a negative in a mid to long term. The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part.

The problem is that it's exceptionally difficult to have 1/ that functions well without 2/ The Euro was designed as a bulwark against currency speculators and people trying to arbitrage between imbalances in the different European economies.

Not difficult at all, many EU countries have decided to stay outside the euro zone. They are doing just fine.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#34

Post by stale2002 »

bostand wrote: post #17
DrNuke wrote: post #9

European Union is not working because too many different economies are in the eurozone. I was a fervent Pro-EU, now realising a federation of independent countries might work better than a superstate.

EU in its simplest form is harmonization of rules and a bigger market for you to sell your goods. That part works exceptionally well. I don't see a single reason where that could be a negative in a mid to long term. The euro zone, which tries to connect some very different economies is not working that great but EU countries can decide to stay out of that part.

Exactly! Give back control of borders to countries, and just run the EU like a NAFTA free trade zone. Bam, best of both worlds!

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#35

Post by lomnakkus »

DrNuke wrote: post #9

European Union is not working because too many different economies are in the eurozone. I was a fervent Pro-EU, now realising a federation of independent countries might work better than a superstate.

If we're talking "what would work best for everyone in the world", then I kind of agree that many small "states" (or whatever) would perhaps be for the best, but that opportunity has passed with the existence of superstates like the US, China, India and Russia. In the world we currently exist, the only rational[1] thing to do is to amass as much power[2] as possible. There are upsides, though, e.g. the ability to divert away from fossil fuels and to invest in renewables. I mean, it's possible such a thing could happen in a decentralized system, but I think it would require "perfect" information, the majority of citizens being "rational" and/or perfectly "self+offspring-interested", etc.

[1] For a "state" to do.

[2] Economic, political, military, etc.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#36

Post by matt_wulfeck »

ComradeTaco wrote: post #25
muninn_ wrote: post #7

You can't have short-term, mass migration without having something happen or change. We will see a huge change in European political landscape within the next few years. People have to slowly assimilate into a culture in order to allow for a gradual, peaceful change in that culture. Shocking these types of systems with any sort of migration is a recipient for instability. Please keep in mind that this isn't any sort…

I see an overall trend of of authoritarianism and nationalism as a response to immigration and an increasingly changing world. There's also a pretty heavy streak of anti-intellectualism as voters were encouraged to fundamentally reject experts that gave (IMHO well-founded) warnings about the ill-effects of Brexit and Trump. In short: Nationalism in, Globalism out.

Even the idea of experts is being rightly criticized. Look at the flip-flopping recommendations of the US health dietary guidelines. What's true to the experts this year will be rejected some point later.

Not only that, but when you have centralized power it becomes much easier to corrupt and politicize. There's wisdom to decentralization.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#37

Post by walterstucco »

MarcusBrutus wrote: post #24

It most definitely is and it takes a very starry eyed sort of person to expect otherwise. The idea that 20 or so different people with different languages, religions, mores, histories, frames of reference, economies could somehow achieve monetary or much less political union under the rule of an un-elected and un-accountable bureaucracy of "commissioners" who rule by means of "directives" (you couldn't make it sound…

Tu quoque bruto filii mi

I mean traitor

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#38

Post by stale2002 »

api wrote: post #14
Mikeb85 wrote: post #2

Based on my recent experience of visiting Europe - yes, it is. I stayed mostly in France, was there during the Brexit vote, and everyone I spoke to was pretty keen on exiting the EU, voting right-wing, and seeing it all crumble. They also have several separatist movements, especially in Brittany, which seems to be more anti-EU than anti-French...

Question: what is the primary grievance against the EU?

Open borders.

Just keep the free trade stuff, but allow countries to control their own borders and things would be good.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#39

Post by pacificmint »

sean_patel wrote: post #5

> For now there is crisis and disintegration wherever I look: the eurozone is chronically dysfunctional, sunlit Athens is plunged into misery, young Spaniards with doctorates are reduced to serving as waiters in London or Berlin, the children of Portuguese friends seek work in Brazil and Angola How much truth is there, to this statement i.e. "young Spaniards with PHDs are serving as Waiters in London or Berlin." Anyo…

I don't know about working as waiters, but Spanish unemployment is insane.

The overall unemployment is around 19% currently, down from almost 27% in 2013. [1]

The youth unemployment is around 44%, down from almost 56% in 2013. [2]

I can't imagine what having half of all young people unable to find jobs will do to a country in the longer term.

[1] http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/unemployment-rate

[2] http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/youth-unemployment-rat...

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#40

Post by tritosomal »

pound wrote: post #15
akjainaj wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in one of the PIGS, I can tell there's not much going on here about leaving the EU. Nobody has seriously brought it up. That said, I see important problems in the EU going on now that must be solved: 1. I know the EU is completely against the "two-speed Europe". But that MUST be put in place if the EU is to survive. There's a clear divide between regions in the EU. It is a cultural divide in the way work is se…

for those wondering: PIGS - Portugal, Italy, Greece & Spain (some people jump to comments)

Yeah, trying to google that acronym would have been utterly futile.

Why do smart people assume that their own familiarity with a subject is a suitable guideline for tossing around opaque acronyms without prior definition? Why are people just supposed to know the acronym?

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