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Is Europe Disintegrating?

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Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#91

Post by BjoernKW »

The EU and its member states will have to adapt. If they don't then yes: Disintegration and a return to rampant nationalism might be the consequence.

The EU in its current incarnation as a centralised, geographically-defined bloc could be considered a relic of colonial, pre-globalization times (as much as nation states are a remnant of pre-industrial, pre-Information Age times).

In order to be able to address the issues of the 21st century we need a much more decentralised structure, more devolution of government to the local level and more cooperation between these decentralised entities.

Large cities in different countries and their respective populations often have much more in common than people from rural regions have in common with these city dwellers (as evidenced by Brexit). Yet through arbitrary national borders they're simply lumped together. The same applies to border regions. Why shouldn't companies and other organisations from different countries be able to work closer together more easily?

Finally, why should organisations such as the EU be defined in terms of geography instead of in terms of shared values? As of now, Canada for instance would be a much better fit to the EU economically and in terms of values than some of the Eastern European member states.

There are a few interesting articles about this subject and 'neo-medieval' overlapping authorities and multiple identities as a possible outcome:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329850-600-end-of-n...

https://stratechery.com/2016/the-brexit-possibility/

https://fieldnotes.mike-walsh.com/brexit-and-the-rise-of-the...

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#92

Post by muninn_ »

kuschku wrote: post #47
muninn_ wrote: post #7

You can't have short-term, mass migration without having something happen or change. We will see a huge change in European political landscape within the next few years. People have to slowly assimilate into a culture in order to allow for a gradual, peaceful change in that culture. Shocking these types of systems with any sort of migration is a recipient for instability. Please keep in mind that this isn't any sort…

> You can't have short-term, mass migration Well, luckily, we don’t have that, eh? In the 90s and 2000s, Western Europe took over a million refugees from the balkans – by 2005, all of them were deported back. There was no wave of nationalism back then, no political change. Even today, in Germany, most are in favor of the current refugee policy. I don’t see why any of what you said has to happen. It hasn’t happened th…

Why were they deported? Is that the same situation as now? Will Germany deport these new refugees back as well? Or are they hear to stay?

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#93

Post by walterstucco »

bjelkeman-again wrote: post #65
bostand wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not difficult at all, many EU countries have decided to stay outside the euro zone. They are doing just fine.

Can't reply to the reply, but Sweden is not a founder of the EU.

I expanded my answer. I wasn't talking about the treaty of Rome.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#94

Post by walterstucco »

ZenSwordArts wrote: post #87
muninn_ wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did those immigrants come from? What is their socio-economic background? Are they refugees, or perhaps tech workers? What about those coming to Europe?

Perfect questions.. and also Europe consists of many countries.. Are the immigrants evenly distributed between them? I doubt it.

define evenly.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#95

Post by krona »

nommm-nommm wrote: post #62
dkb wrote: post #42

Interesting article. I do believe that the EU will collapse, and that it is only a matter of time. First of all, there is not a single instance in History where a common currency, such as the Euro, succeeded. It always has collapsed. Different people in France have developed about this exact subject. I believe that more and more people are in favor of existing the EU. In the case of France, the first thing that peopl…

Your house/building analogy is flawed because there are extremely significant rules/regulations about what your house can look like and what materials you can use to build it leveed by all sorts of levels of government as well as HOAs. Doubly so if you live in a historical neighborhood. And somehow people do manage to live in skyscrapers without flooding the first floor. I'm not sure if anyone ever attempted a curren…

> I'm not sure if anyone ever attempted a currency something like the Euro before.

Well, from 1865 to 1927 there was the 'Latin' monetary union, which failed because some countries (e.g. Greece) simply couldn't afford to produce the coinage and instead debased the currency.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#96

Post by stale2002 »

bostand wrote: post #80
kuschku wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, that kinda changed in September 2016 – because in the refugee crisis the countries were unable to control the outer EU borders properly, the EU got control of the national borders in September 2016, with the establishment of a European Border and Coast Guard: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/... EDIT: I can’t respond to your comment, but please read the article.

Nope, EU countries have always had the possibility of border control (with some limitations). Its just that not having border control is cheaper and allowing people work across birders is good for the economy. So basically until late 2016 the pros outweighed the cons.

This isn't true... Poland has decided to close its borders to immigrants, and the EU wants to fine them 250k an immigrant for it.

The whole reason Brexit happened is because Britain wants to implement border controls.

Edit, Proof: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/eu-to-fine-countr...

Just get rid of these fines, and quotas, and give people control of their borders back.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#97

Post by walterstucco »

akjainaj wrote: post #58
licnep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just anecdotal but I know that spanish people have trouble finding jobs and often stay in school longer while living with their parents. I know two spanish people with a BA, one went au-pairing in france, another one couldn't find a job and moved to morocco cause it was cheaper. So while it may be exagerated, there's probably some truth to that statement. The euro has destroyed the mediterrean economies.

>The euro has destroyed the mediterrean economies. That's implying Mediterranean economies would be better off without the Euro. I beg to differ.

Coming from a Mediterranean Country, I agree with you.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#98

Post by matteuan »

dkb wrote: post #42

Interesting article. I do believe that the EU will collapse, and that it is only a matter of time. First of all, there is not a single instance in History where a common currency, such as the Euro, succeeded. It always has collapsed. Different people in France have developed about this exact subject. I believe that more and more people are in favor of existing the EU. In the case of France, the first thing that peopl…

European laws exist mostly for matters that concern everybody. Every member state can have its own set of rules.

>Not to mention that countries who are not in the EU, but are in Europe, are doing way better on a lot of aspects

This does not mean that being part of EU has something to do with it. For example, if you want to say Norway, you should compare it with Sweden or Finland, not with Portugal or Bulgaria.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#99

Post by stale2002 »

walterstucco wrote: post #74
stale2002 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open borders. Just keep the free trade stuff, but allow countries to control their own borders and things would be good.

No, they won't. You can't cherry pick in this situation. You got free movement in EU because of the Bosman ruling, it's the law, everything less than that is a step back and we can't afford steps back. It's like when your girlfriend asks for some space. It's the beginning of the end and. nothing good can come out of it.

Why not? We can change the law. The people don't want open borders. So change the law to get that. If the EU doesn't, then the whole thing will collapse as we get more brexits.

Brexit wouldn't have happened if Britain was allowed to have border controls.

Re: Is Europe Disintegrating?

#100

Post by tshadley »

muninn_ wrote: post #84
tshadley wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't have short-term, mass migration without having something happen or change. I am generally confused by the claim of "mass migration". As this chart shows, EU migration of 2013 is below the rate of 2002 and is only now recovering from the 2008 economic crisis. http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/... If there is some problem that mass migration causes, why didn't it happen back in 200…

Then why is Europe experiencing such a huge problem now and not then? That's an oversimplified chart that doesn't mean anything for this discussion.

> Then why is Europe experiencing such a huge problem now and not then?

It seems less likely the problem is immigration and more likely at last part of the problem is fear of immigrants. Studies such as the following show that anti-immigrant sentiment is more extreme among residents of rural places than among residents of urban places, even though immigrants are more likely to reside in urban communities.

http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_cita...

Think about that: the people who are most affected by immigration are least worried about it, the ones least affected are most worried.

> That's an oversimplified chart that doesn't mean anything for this discussion.

If the claim is that migration alone is causing the problem, then it isn't oversimplified, it puts migration numbers into historical context. But if your claim is that it is not migration alone that is the issue, then possibly, yes, it is oversimplified. What other issues would you identity?

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