H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules • Hacker News Board

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#301

Post by throwaway2017ab » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 7:12 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #294

throwaway2017ab wrote: post #222

I was a full time H1B employee at AMEX for 3 years. Its not only the Indian outsourcing firms who abuse the H1B visa system. All American companies including AMEX also do that. The company never even had plans to give me a promotion, not even increase my salary a bit even though I worked hard than the Americans for 3 years !. They pretty well knew I was an indentured servant and paid me 79K/annum. All salary raises a…

> I worked hard than the Americans for 3 years !. They pretty well knew I was an indentured servant and paid me 79K/annum. All salary raises and promotions were going to a handful of lazy Americans who rolls into the office whenever they wish. I've never seen hard work produce good results in software. In fact, I've seen it create more issues than it solves. Hard work produces many LOC, but that creates a maintenance…

why do people take things out of contexts and bisect and trisect them word by word ? When I said "I worked hard.." did you think I was burning my midnight oil ?. Trying to make software work by trial & error ?

So to clear it out, when I said "worked hard"..it means sincerely & smart, rather than lazing around, because now I see two comments glorifying smart work rather than hard work. You even went on to predict that hardwork creates more LOC. wow just wow. You are one of those "smart" workers aren't you. I admire you.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#302

Post by vostok » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 7:22 AM UTC

general_ai wrote: post #279

vostok wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or NYC. While a high skilled scientist working in say, Corning, NY at Corning Corp or Niskayuna, NY at GE's research labs, 100k enables a king's life. Highly skilled workers do not receive cost of living adjustments. I've been recruited for jobs in low cost of living and high cost of living areas. The pay is the same in both when there is a true…

Outside of a small handful of areas (SV, Seattle, NY, a few others), it's very difficult to find anything in the $300K+ "total package" range. In SV all you have to do is get yourself hired by one of the top firms and then stay in the saddle while your stock vests and not suck too bad. Voila, 400K a year (much of which you will pay in taxes, but nonetheless). I challenge anyone to find a non-manager software engineer…

There are lots of companies in the Midwest that will pay mid six figures for a non-manager SWE. I will concede that there are fewer such jobs in the Midwest.

I'm not convinced that jobs in the Midwest generally pay less than in California because of cost of living. It may well be that SWE openings in the Midwest are generally for less-skilled SWEs precisely because it's not worth paying California salaries for those roles.

This rings true to me because, well, there are companies in the Midwest that will pay mid six figures.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#303

Post by sytelus » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 7:22 AM UTC

Two biggest improvements that can be made in H1B program:

- Fill slots by sorting candidates with highest salaries instead of lottery

- Allow H1B holders to change employers as long as they are paid same or higher salaries

This will create amazing market competition and pay rise for everyone while making sure H1B holders don't get exploited by so called "body shoppers" taking away majority of their pay.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#304

Post by flukus » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 7:25 AM UTC

throwaway2017ab wrote: post #301

flukus wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I worked hard than the Americans for 3 years !. They pretty well knew I was an indentured servant and paid me 79K/annum. All salary raises and promotions were going to a handful of lazy Americans who rolls into the office whenever they wish. I've never seen hard work produce good results in software. In fact, I've seen it create more issues than it solves. Hard work produces many LOC, but that creates a maintenance…

why do people take things out of contexts and bisect and trisect them word by word ? When I said "I worked hard.." did you think I was burning my midnight oil ?. Trying to make software work by trial & error ? So to clear it out, when I said "worked hard"..it means sincerely & smart, rather than lazing around, because now I see two comments glorifying smart work rather than hard work. You even went on to predict that…

> why do people take things out of contexts and bisect and trisect them word by word ? When I said "I worked hard.." did you think I was burning my midnight oil ?

Yes that what it sounded like, especially when you contrasted it with "lazy Americans who rolls into the office whenever they wish". Also based on a decade of working with migrants often, I can't fault their work ethic but the results have usually been subpar.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#305

Post by flukus » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 7:29 AM UTC

dmode wrote: post #67

I support many H1B reforms - it is essentially a broken program. Canadian and Australian immigration systems provide a good model to build off of a successful high skilled guest worker program. Of course, like everything in the US, an army of lobbyists will prevent such common sense programs to be implemented. Raising the minimum wage to 100K is the wrong approach. Computer science degree programs are a major source…

The Australian one certainly isn't an example to look to. Reading through these comments, almost all of the criticisms can be equally applied to ours. Plus, we often have jobs like hair dressing that fit into the "highly skilled" category.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#306

Post by iamspoilt » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 7:38 AM UTC

This complements the post: http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-uc-vis...

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#307

Post by ashwinaj » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 7:38 AM UTC

Manishearth wrote: post #295

ashwinaj wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, it's the same argument for indentured service Everytime there is an article about H1B, people start flinging "slavery" and "indentured servants". Please be honest and don't analogize H1B hurdles (which I agree exist) to situations where people were actually killed.

Making an analogy does not mean equating the two. I'm specifically making an analogy between the "hey, you chose to do it" arguments that historically supported indenture and are currently supporting the unsavory bits of H1B. These arguments are similar. They share the fallacy of avoiding nuance in the choice (some people aren't fully aware of the choice. Some people may want to change their minds once they've settle…

We respectfully disagree on this. You make valid points and thankfully it's not hyperbole.

I see the practical side of things, which is either I take it or leave it, as I have no vote in this matter. And if I'm taking it, I'm making sure that I develop my skill set so that I make myself invaluable in future employment or if I venture on my own (and this doesn't have to be in the US), rather than wasting my brain cycles and waiting for this elusive piece of paper from the US government.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#308

Post by pedrosorio » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 7:49 AM UTC

vostok wrote: post #302

general_ai wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of a small handful of areas (SV, Seattle, NY, a few others), it's very difficult to find anything in the $300K+ "total package" range. In SV all you have to do is get yourself hired by one of the top firms and then stay in the saddle while your stock vests and not suck too bad. Voila, 400K a year (much of which you will pay in taxes, but nonetheless). I challenge anyone to find a non-manager software engineer…

There are lots of companies in the Midwest that will pay mid six figures for a non-manager SWE. I will concede that there are fewer such jobs in the Midwest. I'm not convinced that jobs in the Midwest generally pay less than in California because of cost of living. It may well be that SWE openings in the Midwest are generally for less-skilled SWEs precisely because it's not worth paying California salaries for those…

Which companies pay ~500k for a non-manager SWE in the Midwest?

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#309

Post by Manishearth » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 7:51 AM UTC

ashwinaj wrote: post #307

Manishearth wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making an analogy does not mean equating the two. I'm specifically making an analogy between the "hey, you chose to do it" arguments that historically supported indenture and are currently supporting the unsavory bits of H1B. These arguments are similar. They share the fallacy of avoiding nuance in the choice (some people aren't fully aware of the choice. Some people may want to change their minds once they've settle…

We respectfully disagree on this. You make valid points and thankfully it's not hyperbole. I see the practical side of things, which is either I take it or leave it, as I have no vote in this matter. And if I'm taking it, I'm making sure that I develop my skill set so that I make myself invaluable in future employment or if I venture on my own (and this doesn't have to be in the US), rather than wasting my brain cycl…

> I see the practical side of things, which is either I take it or leave it

I think you're seeing it from a personal POV, where you have a tradeoff where you've made a valid choice with what you have found to be a net gain. And you did explicitly mention that you're speaking for yourself initially. This is all a fine POV to have and I mostly agree with it; I know many people who have made a similar analysis and come to similar resolutions.

My point is about "I've said this in previous posts as well, nobody forces you to take an H1B, you chose to take it", which is a more general statement about all H1B takers. I find it a bad precedent to set to accept that kind of argument; because like I said the discussion isn't about choice in the first place (and accepting such arguments distracts the decision). Like I said, it's fine to disagree with "H1B putting employees on a leash should be stopped", just don't use choice as an argument there :)

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#310

Post by denzil_correa » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 7:53 AM UTC

vostok wrote: post #238

elevenfist wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Highly skilled workers do not receive cost of living adjustments. I've been recruited for jobs in low cost of living and high cost of living areas. The pay is the same in both when there is a true shortage of labor. Policy cannot be determined by anecdotes. > Company A wants to pay Engineer X $500k and Company B wants to pay Engineer Y $50k then clearly Company A has a greater need. Hardly a forgone conclusion, the…

> For example company B might not have the resources/revenue to outbid company A. If Company B doesn't have the resources to outbid Company A then we've decided, as a society, that whatever Company A is doing is more important that what Company B is doing. > Another counterexample of many for why an auction system is terrible: employee y could be a research scientist in industry contributing to the foundation of a ne…

> If Company B doesn't have the resources to outbid Company A then we've decided, as a society, that whatever Company A is doing is more important that what Company B is doing.

The question being - has that been decided in a fair manner?