Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 692 posts

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#311

Post by [deleted] »

yodon wrote: post #266
edblarney wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Wrong. 'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy'. But it is also the feminine of 'Guy'. Examples: + "Hey guys, there's a problem, let's huddle on this" + "Me and the guys are going out for lunch, you in?" + "That guy is loco!" You would never say: + "Hey men, there's a problem, let's huddle" etc.. And neither: + "Hey women, there's an issue, let's huddle" + "Me and the women are going out for lunch" No. You would reasonabl…

Actually, what the responders above are saying is no, they wouldnt. You are saying that you would. A great many other people are telling you the norms you have internalized are quite different from the norms they internalized. Verbal norms change over time, just as other forms of norms change. You don't have to modify your norms to keep up with how the rest of society views those norms, but where they impact legal de…

[deleted]

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#312

Post by joyeuse6701 »

edblarney wrote: post #250
edblarney wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that language matters but I don't agree with your assertion. 'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy' but it is ALSO the feminine of 'guy'. As in: "the guys and I are going for lunch, are you in?" There is no condescension or diminution.

"This is an indicator of the bubble you're living in. It may be common vernacular amongst all or nearly all of the people you interact with, but it is simultaneously highly disrespectful. It might be worth taking a step back and asking yourself what other things you consider normal might actually be disrespect" You might want to consider that you live in a bubble - and that your finger wagging is condescending. 'Girl…

There are plenty of examples of OK usage, like calling your daughters 'the girls' or your buddies 'the guys'. but calling a grown woman a girl if you're in a position of power (as a man you may always be perceived as such) can be problematic. In your case, since addressing someone you don't like as a girl (julie horvath) comes off in more a negative light than say your sympathetic tone toward the article's subject ('poor girl'). A female director calling a mother 'girl' could be offensive, but calling her 20 something single female co-workers is more acceptable. A man using the term to refer to a woman who is of considerable age a girl enforces a parent-child authority complex. Not good. However a man calling another man son because of seniority or age is acceptable in most regions that I know of, though not all.

Here are a few other examples:

Being addressed as a boy or a girl by a police officer is really disrespectful. 'Boys will be boys' is really a diminutive phrase when referring to men. 'Boys and their toys' when referring to men purchasing items they like is also dismissive.

Perhaps where you are it is not offensive to list it the way I have, but note that it is not the same everywhere and it's glaring enough that it warranted many people posting it.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#313

Post by TenOhms »

sanderjd wrote: post #241
edblarney wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that language matters but I don't agree with your assertion. 'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy' but it is ALSO the feminine of 'guy'. As in: "the guys and I are going for lunch, are you in?" There is no condescension or diminution.

This is an indicator of the bubble you're living in. It may be common vernacular amongst all or nearly all of the people you interact with, but it is simultaneously highly disrespectful. It might be worth taking a step back and asking yourself what other things you consider normal might actually be disrespectful.

A more plausible explanation is that there is a cultural difference. Things must be taken in context, and every culture has words or thoughts that seem demeaning to another culture, but they were not intended to be. As an example, compare the use of the N word between a group of black people and a non-black group of people.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#314

Post by ljf »

enragedliberal wrote: post #299

I really doubt guys who are scared to say girls get laid. But that's just my opinion.

It's not about being scared - it's about not infantilising others. Sure some people (male and female) might not mind 'girl' - but other do and a growing number of people are aware of that. Thinking of others isn't about being scared of offending people, it's about being thoughtful.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#315

Post by Karunamon »

sanderjd wrote: post #241
edblarney wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that language matters but I don't agree with your assertion. 'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy' but it is ALSO the feminine of 'guy'. As in: "the guys and I are going for lunch, are you in?" There is no condescension or diminution.

This is an indicator of the bubble you're living in. It may be common vernacular amongst all or nearly all of the people you interact with, but it is simultaneously highly disrespectful. It might be worth taking a step back and asking yourself what other things you consider normal might actually be disrespectful.

The fact that you see it as disrespectful is just as indicative of the bubble you live in. Everybody has one, and your statement has not been proven to have value outside of your own.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#316

Post by yedava »

scoreponok wrote: post #287

I was sympathetic to her plight up until the 'personal impact' part. It seems to me that the author is using hyperbole when describing her physical/emotional impact on herself and her family to gain some form of sympathy from her audience. With statements like this: >This strife has shattered all of our lives like nothing else before. Based on this statement it seems to me the author and her family have yet to face a…

The reason why our society has such a poor understanding of mental health is because we demand a "real travesty" as a cause of mental illness. Unless there is one, the default assumption is that people are making it up. This is a dangerous belief that harms people.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#317

Post by ksk »

sanderjd wrote: post #241
edblarney wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that language matters but I don't agree with your assertion. 'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy' but it is ALSO the feminine of 'guy'. As in: "the guys and I are going for lunch, are you in?" There is no condescension or diminution.

This is an indicator of the bubble you're living in. It may be common vernacular amongst all or nearly all of the people you interact with, but it is simultaneously highly disrespectful. It might be worth taking a step back and asking yourself what other things you consider normal might actually be disrespectful.

Its rather arrogant to simply proclaim someone is living a bubble and that everyone should agree with you that certain words are disrespectful. Perhaps you should take a step back and ask yourself if you're the one whose in a bubble.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#318

Post by actsasbuffoon »

geoka9 wrote: post #219
Jtsummers wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A note: Constantly referring to women as girls is a part of the problem. There are certainly women that I know and would use that term to refer to them, for various reason. Familiarity, primarily, as in: "Hey, what are the girls doing tonight?" as a question posed to a female friend about our common group of female friends. But you use girl not just for the specific person (Julie Horvath) but for all women ("If a gir…

Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" in your opinion when referring to a female in a professional environment (assuming that referring to males as "guys" is acceptable)?

I tend to informally address mixed gender groups as "you guys," and I know that bugs some people. Unfortunately I can't think of any better gender neutral terms that maintain the informal feeling.

Sometimes I wish I was southern so I could get away with "y'all." It's such a useful term, but it sounds so wrong coming from my north eastern accent.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#319

Post by RHSeeger »

BEEdwards wrote: post #115
yummyfajitas wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unionization is not banned in any state. Your link does not agree with your dishonest comment. Right to work laws simply prohibit collusion between unions and employers to prevent non-union workers from working. They are no different than other worker protection laws, e.g. the laws prohibiting Apple and Microsoft from forming an anti-poaching agreement.

Except that this law makes the union pointless. Laws like that are a prime reason unions are dying. Why pay union dues when you get all the benefits for free? Oh sure, the union shrivels and dies and the benefits leave with it, but fuck it you saved $25 off a few paychecks.

On the other hand, you also get all the negatives while losing many of the benefits. Unions have some positives and some negatives. Some of the positives you benefit from even if you're not in it, some you don't. Some of the negatives you are impacted by if you're not in it, some you don't. It's not a clear case of "getting a big bucket of benefits without paying the cost" if you work for a company w/o joining the union.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#320

Post by [deleted] »

analyst74 wrote: post #125

For anyone new to office politics, or have not experienced hostile politics before, keep those in mind: - Make sure to have some real friends at work. No, someone you work with everyday is not necessarily a real friend, you have to make real connections with them, so they are willing to defend and support you when things get tough. - Be observant and empathetic, so you can notice problems when they first arise, and r…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN