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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#291

Post by sanderjd »

zepto wrote: post #277
edblarney wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is an indicator of the bubble you're living in. It may be common vernacular amongst all or nearly all of the people you interact with, but it is simultaneously highly disrespectful. It might be worth taking a step back and asking yourself what other things you consider normal might actually be disrespect" You might want to consider that you live in a bubble - and that your finger wagging is condescending. 'Girl…

Could it be that you are both living in a bubble and both being condescending?

Yeah, we all live in our own bubble. You're right that I was being condescending. My goal was to point out that things that appear indelibly true to you may not be universally true throughout society. Probably not a fight worth having, oops!

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#292

Post by dep_b »

roflc0ptic wrote: post #31
dep_b wrote: post #14

Lots of down votes because of uncomfortable truth? I've seen this happen a few times and the only thing you need to do is honestly apply feminist values to all people without discriminating to start condemning it. It's like asking for respect for getting addicted to pills by pharmaceutical industries because that's a part of American culture. Maybe some criticism would be in place despite the "it's our culture" thing…

I would say it has downvotes because it's at best tangentially related and has some weird framing: it frames person A who gets feelings for person B as a victim when person B decides not to marry them. Arranged marriage seems pretty horrible, but in talking to an indian coworker recently, they commented that having to find your partner seemed pretty horrible to them. I really don't see any compelling parallels to pha…

> Arranged marriage seems pretty horrible, but in talking to an indian coworker recently, they commented that having to find your partner seemed pretty horrible to them

It's the part where people are forced where they don't want to that I don't like. There's plenty of people married to someone introduced by their parents. You should be able to take another path when you want to.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#293

Post by edblarney »

throwaway-hn123 wrote: post #267
edblarney wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is an indicator of the bubble you're living in. It may be common vernacular amongst all or nearly all of the people you interact with, but it is simultaneously highly disrespectful. It might be worth taking a step back and asking yourself what other things you consider normal might actually be disrespect" You might want to consider that you live in a bubble - and that your finger wagging is condescending. 'Girl…

Boy, you're wrong.

In what way?

You've attacked me twice now with ad-hominem, even worse, not providing any reasonable argument.

In which case above, do you think the interchange of 'guy' or 'girl' would not be acceptable?

Try to take thoughtful position, without trolling ad-hominem.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#294

Post by edblarney »

PuerkitoBio wrote: post #272
edblarney wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nonsense, it's still an uphill battle for victims to get their harasser convicted in Canada. See Jian Ghomeshi, " A) I don't doubt it can be difficult for women - but my statement holds true. B) Referencing 'Giah Gomeshi' entirely validates my point. He was put on trial by a woman who was blatantly and vindictively proven to be lying through her teeth. Gian Gomeshi's trial was a farce - he should have never been pro…

> A) I don't doubt it can be difficult for women - but my statement holds true. That doesn't make any sense? You said: > If a girl feels harassed - then that's it. Guilty. Yet you go on and acknowledge that it may be hard to get their harasser convicted. In all those 3 cases I mentioned (including Ghomeshi), there were many victims that felt harassed. Yet no one in any of those cases was convicted. How does that make…

"In all those 3 cases I mentioned (including Ghomeshi), there were many victims that felt harassed. Yet no one in any of those cases was convicted. How does that make your statement true?"

That's a fair point.

Because it was a criminal trial - not civic or employment suit, also, by blatantly lying, those women destroyed their own credibility.

He was definitely fired by the CBC - and I don't think anyone is questioning that. No trial or legal examination needed.

He should have been fired by the CBC long time ago - then those suits would have never come up.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#295

Post by 762236 »

smsowmya wrote: post #24
pmlnr wrote: post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

I did confront them and ask them to stop, but I still had to work with them, and they didn't entirely stop .. Unless you expect women to have taken Harassment 101 as a college course, they are really flying blind with this one .. when more than one person is involved or supervisors are involved, it's not that easy to say oh here, let me pull so many people into HR .. legalities aside, it's the end of a happy working…

I recently joined a new team and company, and the senior person became threatened by me (I am stronger and would have become the tech lead), and he started bullying me. I switched teams. It cost me time and reputation. I didn't know what else to do, since bullying is a covert aggression and designed to be felt but not witnessed (e.g., he arranged a group after-work get together, in front of me, without asking me the newcomer to join). People don't believe when you point out that someone is aggressing unless it is overt. You get all of the asinine replies that people are writing to your article here. My company gets to reap the reward though: they have someone that is protecting his position of poor performance through bullying, causing us to lose users due to his buggy product, and since he is friends with the management, they don't seem to understand his poor performance.

BTW, good article, kudos for publishing it, and you are correct to have those feelings.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#296

Post by zepto »

What a terrible experience.

I like that she points out the conflicts of interest, wherein the legal structures in which companies are embedded so clearly work against a good solution to the problem.

However I think when she says:

"corrective actions for any violations have to be significant enough to be a deterrent to such behaviors in the future. There also needs to be some accountability for these actions"

She is taking on the same position as these legal structures - I.e. that retribution or punishment is an important part of the equation, and I think this is counter to the rest of her argument.

Men raised in a sexist society can't be individually held responsible for acting in the way they have seen people acting around them as though these are intentional crimes against women.

Massive career damage needs to be taken off the table as the first consequence for all sides of this.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a great deal of accountability - but it needs to be something closer to restorative justice - where those involved can understand each other rather than remain embattled.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#297

Post by traviswingo »

Humdeee wrote: post #187

If I was back at the start of my career, I would of dismissed this article and told the author to "toughen up". After all, what's a bit of ribbing among co-workers? Surely she's just being overly-sensitive. Until I had the (mis)pleasure of working with a truly toxic co-worker did my mindset completely change on the issue of bullying, intimidation, and hostility in the workplace. He was a senior guy, decent at his job…

Exactly. It's hard to understand sometimes until you've witnessed it yourself. Albeit we are living in a "cry wolf" time, actual harassment is a true issue that needs to be taken seriously. Equality and respect aren't that difficult to achieve, I never understood why people are so corrosive towards others. It makes me happy hearing stories about them getting canned over their childish behavior.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#298

Post by YooLi »

geoka9 wrote: post #219
Jtsummers wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A note: Constantly referring to women as girls is a part of the problem. There are certainly women that I know and would use that term to refer to them, for various reason. Familiarity, primarily, as in: "Hey, what are the girls doing tonight?" as a question posed to a female friend about our common group of female friends. But you use girl not just for the specific person (Julie Horvath) but for all women ("If a gir…

Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" in your opinion when referring to a female in a professional environment (assuming that referring to males as "guys" is acceptable)?

The equivalent is gal, but not many say gals, unless possibly you are from Texas where I have heard it before in more rural parts.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#300

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

edblarney wrote: post #293
throwaway-hn123 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy, you're wrong.

In what way? You've attacked me twice now with ad-hominem, even worse, not providing any reasonable argument. In which case above, do you think the interchange of 'guy' or 'girl' would not be acceptable? Try to take thoughtful position, without trolling ad-hominem.

What ad-hominem, boy?

I really hope you're not trying to suggest the use of the word 'boy' is some kind of ad-hom attack. The irony would be too strong.

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