Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective • Hacker News Board

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#81

Post by Xylakant » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:51 PM UTC

kriro wrote: post #60

While not the perfect solution it seems like a lot of the mentioned issues (standardized communication channels, no conflict of interest) could be solved by installing work councils (I take it they are not wide spread in the US? They are standard in Germany): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_council

unions and work councils are fairly rare in the IT/startup sector in Germany. If they exist it's usually because it's the IT department of an old, established enterprise. The rate of union membership in anything that's IT related is comparatively low as well.

Personally, I consider that a problem, because it leaves each employee to fight their own fight. But IT folks somehow tend to believe that they don't need any help (and then subsequently sign contracts with unlimited unpaid overtime because they don't know it's illegal).

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#82

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

keymone wrote: post #32

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> s/women/people Harassment get target _anyone_ But does it target everyone _equally_ ? Of course not, far from it. This is why we pay attention to the groups that get targeted a lot. > Please don't make harassment part of the gender wars. Assuming that it isn't already.

but by targeting harassment properly you'd help all the groups at the same time.

Isn't that basically the ""everyone should get their fair share" argument?

https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3du1qm/e...

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#83

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

keymone wrote: post #32

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> s/women/people Harassment get target _anyone_ But does it target everyone _equally_ ? Of course not, far from it. This is why we pay attention to the groups that get targeted a lot. > Please don't make harassment part of the gender wars. Assuming that it isn't already.

but by targeting harassment properly you'd help all the groups at the same time.

[deleted]

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#84

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

keymone wrote: post #32

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> s/women/people Harassment get target _anyone_ But does it target everyone _equally_ ? Of course not, far from it. This is why we pay attention to the groups that get targeted a lot. > Please don't make harassment part of the gender wars. Assuming that it isn't already.

but by targeting harassment properly you'd help all the groups at the same time.

[deleted]

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#85

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

RodericDay wrote: post #77

yummyfajitas wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no contradiction. Sexism can express itself both in putting women down and in putting women in a pedestal. There's no contradiction, if the witch had led an evil and improper life, she was guilty; if she had led a good and proper life, this too was a proof, for witches dissemble and try to appear especially virtuous. After the woman was put in prison: if she was afraid, this proved her guilt; if she was not a…

I see you posting your libertarian stuff all over HN. I'm not very surprised you also think the real victims here are her coworkers, whom you are unironically trying to liken to prosecuted witches. You've turned this story about a woman being harassed at Apple into a story about her numerous anonymous male coworkers, and dudes at large, being targeted. It's fascinating.

When did I say the real victims were her coworkers? The fact that I think your reasoning is deeply flawed does not imply I hold what you believe to be the opposite view.

Pointing out logical flaws in the reasoning of the inquisition doesn't make me a Satanist (or a libertarian, for that matter).

(Hint: I'm neither a satanist nor a libertarian.)

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#86

Post by rmxt » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:55 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #79

pg314 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely multiple sides to this, like any story. Your imaginary account of the other side does strike me as presumptuous. You were not there, but you do feel entitled to paint a picture of what could have happened. It's like saying to somebody who said they got beat up in the park, that there is another side to their story: they were provoking the other party, and when they got into a fight they didn't ru…

Last time I was in Amsterdam, a friend of mine related the experience he had last night. (Details changed a bit to protect the guilty.) After being out late drinking, he was refused service at several bars for being too drunk. Then, while stumbling around in the streets in search of a bar that would serve them, this craazy biker stopped and punched him in the face completely unprovoked. Then he biked away. Finally he…

So... second guessing someone's retelling of a completely sober, undoubtedly career impacting scenario (one way or another) in the workplace is equivalent to second guessing someone's retelling of a drunken haze of a night?

It's folly to think that the same level and style of scrutiny need be applied to both. You aren't wrong to paint the alternate picture for your friend's case, but it's sidestepping the issue in question (e.g., potential harassment in the workplace) to attempt to make that equivalency here.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#87

Post by provost » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:56 PM UTC

sqldba wrote: post #71

> I was getting preferential treatment because of my “cuteness factor” > Indian women being subservient I agree that these comments don't belong in the workplace. I have seen similar ones lead to people fired on the day and escorted to the door. Thankfully it's relatively rare but some places do take it very seriously. Apple was wrong. In Australia the law is clear and they've breached it. Take them to court and get…

> Apple was wrong. In Australia the law is clear and they've breached it. Take them to court and get your payout

Is the OP in Australia?

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#88

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:57 PM UTC

c0nfused wrote: post #74

Its not a bad idea, but it flirts with unionization which is actively banned in many US states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

Unionization is not banned in any state. Your link does not agree with your dishonest comment.

Right to work laws simply prohibit collusion between unions and employers to prevent non-union workers from working. They are no different than other worker protection laws, e.g. the laws prohibiting Apple and Microsoft from forming an anti-poaching agreement.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#89

Post by eternalban » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

smsowmya wrote: post #30

pmlnr wrote: post #12

Preamble: I'm not questioning or talking against the article at all, just making some notes. The problem seems to be real all around the world, which is yet another indicator that most societies are not ready for global market. The only thing I miss from the article: did she try to talk to her harassers directly before going to a manager? Maybe I misread something but it seems like this did not happen, yet this shoul…

And the thing about questioning, I understand innocent until proven guilty, but putting the onus of everything on the victim is pretty unfair ..

Curious as to your thoughts on official corporate surveillance on employees in context of this sort of she said/he said situations.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#90

Post by diyorgasms » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 2:00 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #72

RodericDay wrote: post #58

> I can't help but notice the contradiction. A man jumped to her defense, which was sexism, and then her co-workers got resentful, which she wanted to be defended from but wasn't, and that was sexism too. Somehow, we all need to display more empathy for her situation. There's no contradiction. Sexism can express itself both in putting women down and in putting women in a pedestal. The rest of your comment is trash.

There's no contradiction. Sexism can express itself both in putting women down and in putting women in a pedestal. There's no contradiction, if the witch had led an evil and improper life, she was guilty; if she had led a good and proper life, this too was a proof, for witches dissemble and try to appear especially virtuous. After the woman was put in prison: if she was afraid, this proved her guilt; if she was not a…

I don't think that the witch trials, which were effectively a small genocide against women, are a particularly effective metaphor for refuting manifestations of sexism.