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Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

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Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#241

Post by sanderjd »

edblarney wrote: post #214
Jtsummers wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A note: Constantly referring to women as girls is a part of the problem. There are certainly women that I know and would use that term to refer to them, for various reason. Familiarity, primarily, as in: "Hey, what are the girls doing tonight?" as a question posed to a female friend about our common group of female friends. But you use girl not just for the specific person (Julie Horvath) but for all women ("If a gir…

I agree that language matters but I don't agree with your assertion. 'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy' but it is ALSO the feminine of 'guy'. As in: "the guys and I are going for lunch, are you in?" There is no condescension or diminution.

This is an indicator of the bubble you're living in. It may be common vernacular amongst all or nearly all of the people you interact with, but it is simultaneously highly disrespectful. It might be worth taking a step back and asking yourself what other things you consider normal might actually be disrespectful.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#242

Post by verroq »

dgacmu wrote: post #234
verroq wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people call females girls they are not infantalising them. Nor do people use this word in this manner. If you have a problem with the word girl in reference to a young woman then your quarrel is with the dictionary.

The key is "young" woman. From wikipedia, "A girl is a female human from birth through childhood and adolescence to attainment of adulthood when she becomes a woman. " The discussion is specifically about calling an adult female human a "girl". Emphasis on adult, which in the US is typically regarded as 18.

My dictionary says a girl is a young or relatively young woman. Keyword on relatively.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#244

Post by mikestew »

verroq wrote: post #220
mikestew wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grown women will also refer each other girls. I've heard a similar argument before, in reference to race. The logic is equally weak when crusty old white bigots use it.

Ah a term used mostly as a racist perjorative is comparable to the word "girl" with has no negative qualities when used in reference to a young women. Take your strawman home with you.

The only straw man is from the one arguing about the terms used. I was referring to logic used to justify the use of those terms, quoting your post in the process. It's almost the antithesis of the straw man argument.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#246

Post by verroq »

AlexandrB wrote: post #232
verroq wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women, girls and ladies are used interchangeably to refer to females. Grown women will also refer each other girls. To read such a common usage as misogyny is idiotic.

Context is everything. If your employer called you "boy" you would be upset. If a judge in a court of law called you "boy" you would be upset as well. And rightly so. While if a friend refers to your group of friends as "the boys", that's clearly a term of endearment. Calling women "girls" while discussing something like the politics of harassment has the effect of subtly diminishing their credibility and personhood.

You seem to think the grandparent deliberately used this term to demean women. I don't think so. I think the usage is common enough that you are being oversensitative.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#247

Post by sanderjd »

geoka9 wrote: post #219
Jtsummers wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A note: Constantly referring to women as girls is a part of the problem. There are certainly women that I know and would use that term to refer to them, for various reason. Familiarity, primarily, as in: "Hey, what are the girls doing tonight?" as a question posed to a female friend about our common group of female friends. But you use girl not just for the specific person (Julie Horvath) but for all women ("If a gir…

Honest question: what would be the equivalent of "guy" in your opinion when referring to a female in a professional environment (assuming that referring to males as "guys" is acceptable)?

I don't think there is one. One of the results of society being imbalanced for a very long time is that language is also imbalanced. It can be frustrating.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#248

Post by coldtea »

tps5 wrote: post #148

I think commenters who are reacting negatively to this story are reacting to the vocabulary rather than the story. Obviously I'm not a witness, but I tend to believe that these events took place more or less as the author describes them. At the same time, words like "sexism" and phrases like "as a minority..." are a big turn-off to some readers, myself included. This isn't because I don't believe in racism/sexism/xen…

>Obviously I'm not a witness, but I tend to believe that these events took place more or less as the author describes them.

Why, though? Because people don't lie, exaggerate, or have strange ideas of what others are doing to them?

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#249

Post by sanderjd »

edblarney wrote: post #218
edblarney wrote: post #181

"there was no harassment according to legal definition. " He's extremely lucky. In Canada, and in a growing number of jurisdictions - there is 'harassment' so long as the victim feels as if there was. If a girl feels harassed - then that's it. Guilty. It's a deep breach of our fundamental rights, in that crimes should be determined objectively, and not subject to the whims and feelings of a victim. Obviously, this is…

I should add: I don't want to take away from the seriousness of the issue ... but it's really nuanced, and people get emotional and really quite biased about it. I think we need to be a little more dispassionate and objective.

This rings hollow because you are not using dispassionate and objective language in the majority of your posts.

Re: Harassment at Apple: A personal perspective

#250

Post by edblarney »

edblarney wrote: post #214
Jtsummers wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A note: Constantly referring to women as girls is a part of the problem. There are certainly women that I know and would use that term to refer to them, for various reason. Familiarity, primarily, as in: "Hey, what are the girls doing tonight?" as a question posed to a female friend about our common group of female friends. But you use girl not just for the specific person (Julie Horvath) but for all women ("If a gir…

I agree that language matters but I don't agree with your assertion. 'Girl' is the feminine of 'Boy' but it is ALSO the feminine of 'guy'. As in: "the guys and I are going for lunch, are you in?" There is no condescension or diminution.

"This is an indicator of the bubble you're living in. It may be common vernacular amongst all or nearly all of the people you interact with, but it is simultaneously highly disrespectful. It might be worth taking a step back and asking yourself what other things you consider normal might actually be disrespect"

You might want to consider that you live in a bubble - and that your finger wagging is condescending.

'Girl' is the feminine of 'Guy' - just as much as it is also the feminine of 'Boy'.

Consider those words for a moment and their common usage.

I'll bet that 'girl' is your vernacular as much as it is mine, because it's universally common.

"That guy/girl is smart" - both acceptable.

"The guys/girls are going out for lunch" - both acceptable.

"Guys/girls, huddle in, let's chat" - both acceptable.

"The guys/girls from marketing are in town this week" - both acceptable.

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