No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems • Hacker News Board

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#121

Post by hajile » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 11:55 PM UTC

JamesHurburgh wrote: post #99

I couldn't read more than a paragraph of this article it's so ridiculous. The idea that positive reinforcement is a radical idea? Ridiculous. The idea that you can ignore destructive behaviour until it goes away? Ridiculous. It's about addressing the situation. As a parent the best thing is when I get to positively reinforce my child's behaviour, because it means I've seen them do something wonderful. (Helping a sibl…

That's the core issue. Lots of bad habits don't lend themselves well to only positive reinforcement because the habit itself provides a positive reinforcement to the individual. They'll continue to do whatever because it's fun even if it's self-destructive in the end.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#122

Post by tw04 » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 11:55 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #113

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

I'm not sure why that would humble her. If she trained dogs, then she already knew 99% of the dogs out there with behavioral issues are a direct result of the owner. There are VERY rare circumstances where it's just a genetic defect (for lack of better term) in the dog, and it just has insurmountable issues. After fostering/owning roughly 75 dogs in my life, I can say 9 times out of 10 that consistency and discipline are lacking in households that have a "problem dog".

Ironically enough, the exact same consistency and discipline are pretty vital for a child as well. They need a little structure in their lives to feel secure. (No, I'm not talking helicopter parenting or scheduling every second of your child's day).

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#123

Post by cmrdporcupine » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 11:56 PM UTC

junto wrote: post #18

> Tone of voice dictates whether you're going to get compliance or not. "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. Having real choice is not the issue, humans don't feel too strongly about that, but having the feeling that you have a choice makes…

This technique worked for us a bit in the toddler years, but it became ineffective for both kids around 4 or 5. They clue in quite quickly and start pushing for ... other options.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#124

Post by manarth » Sun, Dec 04, 2016, 11:58 PM UTC

So much of this sounds like "control".

  > "it's BF Skinner's Operant Conditioning"
  > "Choice increases the likelihood of compliance"
  > "There are a whole bunch of things that happen…and you can get the child to comply"

Most parents would want the best for their child, but there's a massive gulf between wanting the best for someone, and using psychological tricks to force them into complying with expectations.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#125

Post by employee8000 » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 12:00 AM UTC

My youngest is not motivated by rewards or punishment. He just doesn't care. If I reward him with something good, he will accept it, but the loss of the reward will not motivate him to do things. Similarly he won't like being punished but the punishment won't stop him from doing things that he wants to. His teachers told us the same thing, which creates problems because when he decides he wants to misbehave, there's nothing that will motivate him to behave until he chooses to behave.

I don't spank him, but I'll give him timeouts but I've come to terms with the fact that he is motivated by different things than other kids. The techniques in the article won't work for my child at all. Hopefully he will mature and we can reason with him in other ways.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#126

Post by desireco42 » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 12:05 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #118

"No negative reinforcement" is what gives us kids that run screaming around in restaurants and stores. Sorry, I disagree with an absolute ban. As a parent, I think that there is something far more important than positive or negative reinforcement. In my opinion, the fact that the child should believe at a very deep level that you are far more stubborn than they are is the single most important thing. Without that, th…

Yeah, they need to be sure you are crazier then them and you will followup on most things you promise.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#127

Post by madgar » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 12:09 AM UTC

manmal wrote: post #20

davedx wrote: post #2

Positive reinforcement is hardly "radical".

I agree that it shouldn't, but it is. I need only talk to my mother, she has some very strange ideas of how to raise kids, explaining a lot of my knee-jerk reactions when communicating with my own kids.

My mother told me recently that my six-year-old nephew's personality was already set in stone, and his occasional bursts of energy were proof he needed "tough love" and "a wake-up call," including changing schools. She also seems to have forgotten that my father hit us with his belt. Very strange indeed.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#128

Post by anotherhacker » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 12:09 AM UTC

Anyone who writes this kind of stuff needs to disclose that:

1) They are a parent. 2) They have used their suggested technique on their own children.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#129

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 12:10 AM UTC

gohrt wrote: post #94

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like this, perhaps: For the teens, the psychologist's advice is literally: Well, maybe don't be such a bitch in the first place, Mom.

"literally"?

Literally has also been used for emphasis while not being literally true, since, I'm told, at least the period Shakespeare was slinging ink around.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#130

Post by bsder » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 12:10 AM UTC

biofox wrote: post #4

"Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. Having real choice is not the issue, humans don't feel too strongly about that, but having the feeling that you have a choice makes a difference. This was the main take away for me. It seems like it might…

Anytime someone does "choice framing" (or other "persuasion techniques") on me, they have automatically placed themselves on thin ice.

Most of the time, I will ignore it because it isn't important enough for me. If I know you are a "sales/marketing" type, I may simply ignore this part of your personality because I realize you can't turn it off.

If I think it's important, I will call you out on it. I will inform you quite strongly that I will come to my own conclusions after I have considered my options. If you want my support, present me with your evidence and arguments.

If this is a business power play, I'm going to call one or two other people over who will want the choice to go different directions, sit back, and watch everything melt down into a gigantic argument.

Don't manipulate people around you to do things they don't want to do. Align your goals and tasks so that people want to do the thing you want them to do. Otherwise, you'll get a reputation for "playing poker" all them time, and then people will start avoiding you.

Or worse, they'll start sending someone like me over to deal with you. And they'll laugh as you get increasingly frustrated that you are interacting with someone you can't manipulate. (Yes, I'm speaking from both personal and business experience).