Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market • Hacker News Board

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#191

Post by VLM » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 3:28 PM UTC

s_q_b wrote: post #20

brohee wrote: post #2

Comparing those numbers with Europe, whose safety net doesn't usually require people to pretend being disabled, would have been enlightening. A missed opportunity.

I would wager most of those people are disabled, but for psychological reasons. As you point out, the level of stress caused by financial insecurity during any period of disability is extremely high. A lot of white collar workers in the US end up in a particular catch-22: their jobs are making them sick, but because they are sick, they can't leave their jobs. They become psychologically disabled because of the pressu…

"In conclusion, there is no doubt that there are some true "fakes" scamming the system."

The system scammed them. "Do what your teachers say and collect pieces of paper from academics and 100% of you will get a guaranteed lifelong meal ticket with great bennies"

So now they have to suicide, taking their families with them, because no job means no food no shelter no medical care ... or they can scam the system right back, just like the system scammed them. "For my whole life, did everything I was told no matter how hard or stupid it sounded, to get that lifelong real job meal ticket, they took it away from everyone in my community to save money, guess I'll just collect a lifelong disability meal ticket instead, its a lot of work and BS but the process selected for people good at putting up with BS so I'll surely get mine"

In modern America disability is our only long term unemployment system. You get pain pills for phantom pain then sell them for extra cash. The system screws you, you screw it right back. Isn't their fault they were born into a system that tossed them away like human trash. The system is faulty, not them.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#192

Post by jokoon » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 3:28 PM UTC

fizzbatter wrote: post #64

jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

> I know I'm ranting but to me, society looks like a giant treading mill. Happiness and the slow, intelligent life have been forgotten in favor of a society of endless work and jobs. Contributing to the labor force has become a religion. The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It should not. I mean, to a degree i can understand what you mean. We are seeking happin…

> Why should you get to do what you like, when others so clearly cant?

Because I'm free to do so, because work is consented, not forced.

> Seems very very foreign to me.

The most basic things are becoming cheaper and cheaper, so I don't think there are good enough reasons to run on that treadmill to deliver pizzas or wait tables. Those are bonus, yet we warrant that those things are necessary in society, instead of giving a basic income.

My rant is not only about automation and the need of jobs, it's also political, it's about resource allocation. Arguing that "everybody has to do its part" is a paradox in a free capitalist society. If there is known inequality on top of it, asking people to get that job will not make sense, especially when you hear that people are working hard to automate everything. So either your take unemployed people and you train them at robotics, but you can't tell them to deliver pizza when engineers are working on pizza-making machines.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#193

Post by jokoon » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 3:30 PM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #97

jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

People respond to incentives. You ( specifically you) get paid to be disabled. If the government started paying people to have an urge to eat artificially shit-flavored desserts (which is obviously a mental issue, since it's disgusting) then as soon as word got out, we would have a new epidemic of people with an inexplicable obsession to eat artificially shit-flavored desserts, making them unsuitable to integrate and…

If companies need me so much, they would be contacting me. If they don't, they can do without. Those are incentives too.

And no, I don't get paid for my disability, I just get welfare like other unemployed people.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#194

Post by gaius » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 3:31 PM UTC

jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

Out of curiosity what condition leaves you unable to work in tech but able to serve in the army? And in which branch?

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#195

Post by tudelo » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 3:31 PM UTC

jokoon wrote: post #173

NhanH wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't read into this post and the questions any more deeply than the surface, I do not have any intended judgement nor intend to imply anything. I'm trying to understand your post: I got your situation, but I'm missing the bigger points you are making. > How on earth do you want people like me begging for a job? It makes no sense. What do you mean with "people like you"? What is your problem? I'm taking the fi…

> What is your problem? I'm the archetype loser. > Or that we currently have a shitty situation in job finding? I think companies don't care about the candidate they are looking for. Of course it's a market, but it's not well "regulated". Nobody really knows who is available for what, and due to that, companies can't really hire properly. If there were an actual database of candidates, and if there were better profil…

Then they would have to find you a job. I mean no offense, but there is no job that exists for someone who is 31 and held a job for no longer than a month.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#196

Post by jokoon » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 3:34 PM UTC

reverend_gonzo wrote: post #176

jokoon wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure I contradict myself, and I know that. My issue is how people have been transformed into labor machines. Being rated by a salary is meek metric to begin with. That's a problem of principle. > I think the majority of people would classify you as being lazy, and I would say they are right to do so. And they would, but until you can find a good reason for me to contribute to a society, I would call that relatively l…

You are precisely the kind of person who causes people to question welfare. I know exactly how to give you a good reason to contribute society. If we stop giving you free food and shelter, and if you want to not starve, you will find a job. In the current system you will get removed instantly if you are not competitive enough or take a little too much time to work on something. That's how capitalism works: only the n…

> You are precisely the kind of person who causes people to question welfare.

Yet basic income has become a large conversation.

> If we stop giving you free food and shelter, and if you want to not starve, you will find a job.

Sure, go do that. I'm not against it, I'm just scared that so many people will starve and not find a job, that those people will start rioting pretty quickly. That's an aspect you don't seem to think about.

> How would you know this? By your words, you have never worked more than a month in your entire life.

Well not getting hired for the same reason is the same thing.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#197

Post by ashark » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 3:35 PM UTC

lgieron wrote: post #70

muse900 wrote: post #32

What I'll write might sound stupid to some but well... There needs to be a re-configuration of the global economy and its system. People like me late 20's and younger might be feeling that they have no future. At least I do. I am working full-time and thats fine. That only pays my day to day expenses, coming the end of the month am always out of money waiting for the next paycheck. Me buying my own house? That sounds…

> There is literally no goal set for me. Will I get a pension when I get older? WHO KNOWS? Will I ever get off working even when I reach a very old age? Who knows, most likely i'll be working for the rest of my life... There is an universal retirement scheme in USA, isn't that money enough?

Social Security is tied to how much you made (up to a point) so low income earners will receive less of it (though they may receive more from other sources in that case). It also tends to be barely enough to scrape by eating days-old bakery outlet bread, cheap canned soup on sale, and living in a crappy poorly-maintained house (or trailer home) in a tiny, poor country town, with no hope of things ever improving, even in the best cases. If you have ties to a community church maybe they'll help you fix your leaking roof, because there's no way its happening otherwise. That's your life on a Social Security (only) retirement.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#198

Post by denzil_correa » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 3:36 PM UTC

throwaway1892 wrote: post #181

denzil_correa wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? Without immigrants, the social benefit system would reduce anyways because there aren't enough young people to pay into the system. In addition, both low and high skilled migrants increase productivity and per capita GDP in advanced economies (Source : IMF) [0]. [0] http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2016/02/pdf/c4.pdf

From the linked paper: "The stock of refugees has a stronger presence of children; in 2015, for instance, more than half of refugees were under the age of 18." So a part of the migrants would not influence positively the GDP for a few years and put more pressure on public welfare system, as well as public schools and hospitals. Also I think that, whether low or high skilled, when you have high unemployment rate (abov…

Right there in the abstract

> a common theme is that, despite the negative short-term impact on recipient economies, they offer potential gains in the long term.

In addition, Figure 4.21 (and surrounding text) explicitly mentions the positive longer term growth effects due to migrants.

> So a part of the migrants would not influence positively the GDP for a few years and put more pressure on public welfare system, as well as public schools and hospitals.

That is assuming the current system is not good enough.

> whether low or high skilled, when you have high unemployment rate (above 10%),

Generally, migrants move to countries with opportunities.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#199

Post by jokoon » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 3:37 PM UTC

witty_username wrote: post #185

jokoon wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody owes you a living. Since FDR, social programs has been implemented, so actually, yes, everyone is owed something because we understood that society can easily crash if some people don't have food.

Do most people think that way? I thought social programs were more about moral aspects (it's unethical to let someone die of starvation simply because they don't have enough money).

> Do most people think that way?

Well you should knock to doors in all the ghettos you can find to get an answer or at least some bit of conversation.

> I thought social programs were more about moral aspects

It's also a matter of society not drowning in crime. It's better if government can give money to people instead of criminal paying poor people to sell drugs.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#200

Post by eveningcoffee » Mon, Oct 17, 2016, 3:38 PM UTC

witty_username wrote: post #179

eveningcoffee wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What farmers? People used to kill other animals and pick berries, fruits and seeds.

That's pretty tiring. Easier to just throw seeds into the ground and let it grow. You can just pick it much more easily.

It is a simplistic view of it. Hardest part of the farming is not seeding, even not land preparation and maintaining, but making sure that you are the one to pick and keep the harvest.