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Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

nytimes.com

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Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#31

Post by contingencies »

istjohn wrote: post #16
contingencies wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that many people are supposed to have mental 'disorders', perhaps the problem is really those wielding the alleged definition.

Your knee-jerk response to this statistic is symptomatic of the stygma attatched to mental illness in our society. If this was a statistic on a viral infection, would you be so doubtful? This attitude is what keeps people from being willing to seek help when they suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts for fear that skeptics will judge them as faking or lacking character. As someone who lived for over ten years w…

I think you misread my comments. I am just saying that when a fairly large percentage of the population is considered 'mentally ill' then they're probably not ill at all, they're just having a perfectly reasonable response to a completely screwed up society. I mean objectively the binary view of "sick" and "healthy" is wrong for starters. Also objectively, many societies don't have these issues or at least don't have these issues to nearly the rates that the US or Japan does... what does that you tell you about so-called (capitalist) "development" in a society? Maybe something, maybe nothing. You be the judge. Not that anyone asked, but I personally believe the whole antidepressant epidemic in the US (and other places, like Denmark, the self-reported happiest country on earth) is a symptom of a fundamental breakdown in the community aspects of society and a pervasive, deep-seated sense of mental rudderlessness infecting the more vulnerable parts of the population (lower socioeconomic status, indebted/mortgaged workers, isolated lifestyle individuals, the elderly) as a result.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#32

Post by muse900 »

What I'll write might sound stupid to some but well...

There needs to be a re-configuration of the global economy and its system.

People like me late 20's and younger might be feeling that they have no future. At least I do. I am working full-time and thats fine. That only pays my day to day expenses, coming the end of the month am always out of money waiting for the next paycheck. Me buying my own house? That sounds like some sort of sorcery to me...

Unfortunately prices went up, on houses etc and nowadays you got Tech involved in anything you do. You have to have a smartphone, and your wife wants the smartphone with the bitten apple no matter if it will cost half a months salary. Your kids want an Ipad or some sort of tablet. Your household needs a TV with netflix, amazon and whatever so you don't get bored. Add all those small things around and the era where everyone is obsessed with "BRANDS", yes let me buy a GANT sweater cause it going to make me so cool, while I could have bought a sweater much much cheaper of the same quality.

Unfortunately that makes you think that ok... live today and let tomorrow be.

Also another thing that I see around a lot is the use of Drugs and Weed especially. Several people I know or most I'd say they make daily use of Weed. Thats definitely affecting their mind and tbh they've reached the level of obsession with it where they really don't need anything else to live off.

There is literally no goal set for me. Will I get a pension when I get older? WHO KNOWS? Will I ever get off working even when I reach a very old age? Who knows, most likely i'll be working for the rest of my life... Will I be able to afford a house and a normal way of life? Probably in the next 20 years, thats too late but its the truth I'll be around 50's when I'll be owning a house. Not an expensive house, a house that prolly when I sell it won't even cover me for 5 years of living without a job. Thats the sad situation that I and all youngsters are in, let alone people in the US or even Europe with Student loans, I don't even wanna think of them and what kind of future can they have.

P.S I am referring to an example of what the average person around me thinks of. Don't call me self-entitled that's harsh and you don't know me.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#33

Post by ZeroGravitas »

After watching the documentary "13th" on Netflix recently, I wondered about how the US prison population affected this. Something like 1 out of 100 people in the US are in prison, which must be close to 2 out of 100 men. And another chunk of people who's function in society is to monitor those in jail. Plus the difficulties of getting a job as a felon. Seemed like all put together must have a serious impact on productivity.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#34

Post by contingencies »

maxerickson wrote: post #9
contingencies wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that many people are supposed to have mental 'disorders', perhaps the problem is really those wielding the alleged definition.

Not really, a diagnosis of a mental disorder isn't an attempt to slur a person, it's recognition that they have behavior patterns that inhibit their ability to engage with society. That's something that can be assessed pretty objectively.

I did not say that, and I agree with you. However, I disagree that any majority has the right to force others to 'engage with society' on their own terms or be excluded, which is often basically what allegations of 'mental illness' are.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#35

Post by csomar »

jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

You mention disability. May I understand what is exactly preventing you from doing productive hours?

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#36

Post by contingencies »

Shivetya wrote: post #26
contingencies wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that many people are supposed to have mental 'disorders', perhaps the problem is really those wielding the alleged definition.

well i can see those replying to you completely ignore the amount of money involved in diagnosing such issues. it is similar to handing out handicap placards, there is so much money to be had from various programs that its profitable for both hospital and even the patients. worse the system discourages not giving patients the designation they want because doctors are routinely subject to surveys that must come back p…

Thanks for contributing to the discussion instead of attacking my (apparently much misinterpreted) statement. There is a systemic problem with the bureaucracy around health in many countries, and western countries have diagnosed huge amounts of mental 'disorders' from children to adults in the past few decades. There is certainly a profit motive. However, there is also a reality that in an increasingly urbanized/automated/electronic communication based society, maintaining meaningful human relationships, a sense of self-worth and the will to often meaningless employment is clearly becoming gradually more and more difficult for many people. This is what I refer to when I suggest that the number of so-called mentally ill is perhaps only indicative of a problem of society. I think, in fact, that the people who respond to this reality with despondent depressive demotivation and feelings of helplessness, paranoia and anxiety are actually extremely rational. Perhaps more rational than the majority.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#37

Post by NhanH »

jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

Please don't read into this post and the questions any more deeply than the surface, I do not have any intended judgement nor intend to imply anything. I'm trying to understand your post: I got your situation, but I'm missing the bigger points you are making.

> How on earth do you want people like me begging for a job? It makes no sense.

What do you mean with "people like you"? What is your problem? I'm taking the first paragraph to mean depress or some related disorder, but then you have

> In some meeting with other people with disabilities, I suggested that there should be companies whose job is to match candidates with companies directly, so that candidates do not have to move sky and earth to find a job. I think it's not even a problem of investment and risk taking, it's just that there is nothing to build or to make, except software and robots, which require education, which is always money-constrained, unsurprisingly. Either that or people don't want to work anymore, and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary.

Do you mean this would be a more systematic issue due to changes in labor requirements? Or that we currently have a shitty situation in job finding?

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#38

Post by brookside »

istjohn wrote: post #16
contingencies wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that many people are supposed to have mental 'disorders', perhaps the problem is really those wielding the alleged definition.

Your knee-jerk response to this statistic is symptomatic of the stygma attatched to mental illness in our society. If this was a statistic on a viral infection, would you be so doubtful? This attitude is what keeps people from being willing to seek help when they suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts for fear that skeptics will judge them as faking or lacking character. As someone who lived for over ten years w…

Wholly agree that mental illness should be taken seriously. Having been in personal valley an having sought help, I must say my encounter with the mental health world has been so staggeringly disappointing, with so little science on display. The experience has been like stepping into the church of some religion you haven't been indoctrinated into, instantly apparent how little connection to logic or reality the dogma possesses.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#39

Post by muninn_ »

jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

Have you considered coming to study in the United States and obtaining a bachelor's degree? Software development is in high demand in all aspects here. At worst you get a break from your current life, at best you start a new one. Let me know if you want to chat more.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#40

Post by slfnflctd »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #10
contingencies wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that many people are supposed to have mental 'disorders', perhaps the problem is really those wielding the alleged definition.

Have you ever gone through the process of being so mentally ill you can't work? It's quite difficult and not something one undergoes just because they want free money. It's dehumanizing and degrading to have to list all these ways you literally can't function like a mentally healthy human being. I know people who frankly have to choose between that and homelessness. To imply there's nothing wrong with these people an…

> It's dehumanizing and degrading to have to list all these ways you literally can't function

I couldn't even imagine going through such a process when I was at my worst. It wouldn't have happened unless someone physically forced me to do it. I actually would have ended up 'choosing' to be homeless (or dead) if it wasn't for the care of friends and family.

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