Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

mobile.nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 259 posts

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#71

Post by angersock »

throawaybay wrote: post #61
internaut wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you find the idea of a wage fixing cartel so bizarre? It's a phenomenon as old as labour markets themselves. The employer does not want a market for labour, they want a steady supply of workers for the lowest price. Since there are fewer employers than workers, it is easier to coordinate a plot against them. Also when the economy becomes more centralized and bigger companies swallow up smaller ones, you should…

I would have thought that Google and Facebook coming in would cause wages to rise?

Well, perhaps, but at least Google had been taken to court for hiring collusion.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#72

Post by emodendroket »

khedoros1 wrote: post #66
simtel20 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm noticing that you are asking a question, and then ask another question, put forward a straw man, and then say: > With software development it's a little different without having answered any questions with facts nor citing any references or even anecdotes to support the notion that there is a difference in the jobs or the impacts to the businesses in their respective industries.

I'm noticing that they effectively used a series of rhetorical questions to try to make a point. The point is that the curve of worker skill to product cost doesn't have to be the same between a pastry chef and a software developer. That concept is more interesting to me than any references would likely be.

Without any support there's no way to evaluate it, interesting or not.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#73

Post by dorfsmay »

dwc wrote: post #41
hughes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

You left out a plausible (and common) option: a more expensive pastry chef can make pastries that sell better. This is what's in play when you see a line out the door at some shop. The prices may not be that much more expensive, but the quality is that much better.

I can imagine an expensive chef to setup processes that allows cheaper personnel to keep producing quality party. Slowly that process will suffer from time rot (eg: different floor that requires a diff cooking, but cheaper labour can't figure it out), also innovation will suffer.

I see the exact same thing in dev envs, and even more so in ops/sysadmin. Cheaper unskilled labour going through old fashion processes without questioning and never trying to improve.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#74

Post by emodendroket »

jethro_tell wrote: post #45
riskable wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but a pastry chef can only disappoint so many customers at once. A single stupid mistake by a software developer can impact millions . The Yahoo leak alone was half a billion users . That's a lot of dough!

What do you mean? I don't believe there was much indication that that cost yahoo anything at all? The stock didn't respond. I doubt many customers left. The page rank has not changed. And there is no indication from previous large breaches that the customer cares or at least thinks anyone else is doing it better. So what leads you to think that the impact to a business (especially of comparable scale) would cause mor…

Yeah, Yahoo was already dying of attrition anyway. I suspect the majority of those accounts were not active.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#75

Post by emodendroket »

logicallee wrote: post #44
bootload wrote: post #2

"the salaries of pastry makers in the Chicago area do not appear to have budged much, if at all. The key to this puzzle tells us a lot about why the American economy isn’t necessarily behaving the way workers have traditionally assumed. ... Employers, according to those in the industry, have increasingly turned to less experienced workers to ensure the flow of sweets" The drive to employ cheaper, okay workers in acti…

No it really doesn't. It probably take all of 90 minutes to learn everything there is to know about making the pastries which are on the menu. Pastry-making is glorified robotics (but it's very exacting, baking is rather unforgiving compared to other forms of cooking.) Software development consists of creating a new recipe every day: you are NOT following well-defined steps.

> Software development consists of creating a new recipe every day: you are NOT following well-defined steps.

If your job is customizing CRM installations maybe not so much.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#76

Post by wyldfire »

emodendroket wrote: post #68
hughes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

Do you really find it hard to believe that a more experienced pastry chef can make better pastries? I think this is the same frustrating myopia that makes people assume they all could easily write software the way you do except in reverse.

The business of pastry sales saturates pretty quickly relative to other products. So "better pastries" can keep on scaling but you can't keep charging more for them. The regional food/dining marketplace can only bear so much, so "better pastries" can't draw from a much larger group of customers.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#77

Post by Spooky23 »

mc32 wrote: post #29
bootload wrote: post #2

"the salaries of pastry makers in the Chicago area do not appear to have budged much, if at all. The key to this puzzle tells us a lot about why the American economy isn’t necessarily behaving the way workers have traditionally assumed. ... Employers, according to those in the industry, have increasingly turned to less experienced workers to ensure the flow of sweets" The drive to employ cheaper, okay workers in acti…

Problem is price for pastries is more or less elastic. I'll pay $2 to $4 for a croissant/crescent but I'm not going to pay more than that. An $8 croissant isn't going to be any better because the preparer gets paid more. It may taste marginally better with more expensive ingredients, but not because the chef/baker/baxter is paid more.

The problem is that you're probably representing the prototypical American, who wouldn't know good bread or baked good if it hit them.

Customers don't know the difference, so most places are fine with serving frozen cakes from the local wholesaler. So the labor rates is driven by those costs.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#78

Post by qwrusz »

The headline when I click the link now reads "Creating a Pastry Chef From Scratch"

This also seems more accurate.

Pastry chefs may be in demand, but it does not appear that experienced and trained pastry chefs are in some high demand. Sounds like humans willing to work as pastry chefs are in demand. Personally I have not noticed a pastry explosion. Couple more cupcake spots maybe.

If humans are easy to find and train to do this "from scratch" while on the job...Supply meets demand here. One reason why wages aren't rising.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#79

Post by clock_tower »

internaut wrote: post #36
dcre wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...what? If I could upvote the top half and downvote the second I would.

Why do you find the idea of a wage fixing cartel so bizarre? It's a phenomenon as old as labour markets themselves. The employer does not want a market for labour, they want a steady supply of workers for the lowest price. Since there are fewer employers than workers, it is easier to coordinate a plot against them. Also when the economy becomes more centralized and bigger companies swallow up smaller ones, you should…

Think about how people won't buy turnips (or consumer goods in general) if the price is higher than they expect -- even if that's the break-even price. I think something similar's happening with employers: they won't pay more than $80-$100,000 for a programmer, the market-clearing price for programmers is somewhere around $130,000, and thus you get a STEM shortage. And this applies pretty much everywhere; it's astonishing how few employers are willing to admit that they can't fill positions, they aren't offering enough money.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#80

Post by lazyjones »

emodendroket wrote: post #68
hughes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

Do you really find it hard to believe that a more experienced pastry chef can make better pastries? I think this is the same frustrating myopia that makes people assume they all could easily write software the way you do except in reverse.

> Do you really find it hard to believe that a more experienced pastry chef can make better pastries?

That makes sense, but after a certain level of experience, their contribution to quality of pastries will likely reach a plateau and it will only increase further with better ingredients.

Post reply on HN