Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? • Hacker News Board

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#41

Post by dwc » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:18 PM UTC

hughes wrote: post #14

bootload wrote: post #2

"the salaries of pastry makers in the Chicago area do not appear to have budged much, if at all. The key to this puzzle tells us a lot about why the American economy isn’t necessarily behaving the way workers have traditionally assumed. ... Employers, according to those in the industry, have increasingly turned to less experienced workers to ensure the flow of sweets" The drive to employ cheaper, okay workers in acti…

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

You left out a plausible (and common) option: a more expensive pastry chef can make pastries that sell better.

This is what's in play when you see a line out the door at some shop. The prices may not be that much more expensive, but the quality is that much better.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#42

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:19 PM UTC

eva1984 wrote: post #15

> For the profession, the downside is that it can be hard to scratch out a middle-class living. Middle-class living meaning? If it consists owning a property, then...you might need to adjust your definition of middle-class then.

[deleted]

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#43

Post by cylinder » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:19 PM UTC

There's a cap to how much people will pay for dessert. They will just skip it if it's too expensive. As such restaurants will source cheaper pastries from larger suppliers if they reach this point, rather than employ in house chefs.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#44

Post by logicallee » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:21 PM UTC

bootload wrote: post #2

"the salaries of pastry makers in the Chicago area do not appear to have budged much, if at all. The key to this puzzle tells us a lot about why the American economy isn’t necessarily behaving the way workers have traditionally assumed. ... Employers, according to those in the industry, have increasingly turned to less experienced workers to ensure the flow of sweets" The drive to employ cheaper, okay workers in acti…

No it really doesn't. It probably take all of 90 minutes to learn everything there is to know about making the pastries which are on the menu. Pastry-making is glorified robotics (but it's very exacting, baking is rather unforgiving compared to other forms of cooking.) Software development consists of creating a new recipe every day: you are NOT following well-defined steps.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#45

Post by jethro_tell » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:23 PM UTC

riskable wrote: post #38

zanny wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheap, inexperienced pastry chefs can also ruin a restaurants reputation if they screw up too badly. You get the quality you pay for.

Ah, but a pastry chef can only disappoint so many customers at once. A single stupid mistake by a software developer can impact millions . The Yahoo leak alone was half a billion users . That's a lot of dough!

What do you mean? I don't believe there was much indication that that cost yahoo anything at all? The stock didn't respond. I doubt many customers left. The page rank has not changed. And there is no indication from previous large breaches that the customer cares or at least thinks anyone else is doing it better.

So what leads you to think that the impact to a business (especially of comparable scale) would cause more financial impact if it was your average dev job vs a chef?

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#46

Post by code_sardaukar » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:25 PM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #37

Tony Galzin, a former pastry chef at the Chicago restaurant MK, cited ice cream making. It can take months to learn how to achieve the correct proportions of fat, sugar, protein, water and stabilizers, all of which are thrown off by the use of different ingredients. This is an example of pastry chefs overvaluing their own skills, so not surprising there is labor substitution happening.

"months" sounds reasonable actually. "decades" and I would definitely agree with you.

The problem with this sort of discussion is that everyone thinks they are worth more than the market will pay, and that the market is somehow broken.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#47

Post by dmamills » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:26 PM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #37

Tony Galzin, a former pastry chef at the Chicago restaurant MK, cited ice cream making. It can take months to learn how to achieve the correct proportions of fat, sugar, protein, water and stabilizers, all of which are thrown off by the use of different ingredients. This is an example of pastry chefs overvaluing their own skills, so not surprising there is labor substitution happening.

This is hysterically ironic on a forum like hacker news.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#48

Post by clock_tower » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:28 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #31

Swizec wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It often seems like even at the cost of getting inferior work-product, many customers have come to believe that cheap pastries are a moral principle." I think that's the gist of the issue. People want a $5 snack, not a $35 artisanal free-range organic pastry dining experience.

I'm not sure that's the whole picture. For instance, in many European cities, I can get a better quality product for $5 at a corner shop than I can for $35 at some artisanal hipster place here in the States. It's one of the things I love about visiting Berlin; I've never eaten simultaneously so well and so cheaply.

To think that people yell at me when I say that the US's higher-than-Europe GDP doesn't mean that the US has a higher quality of life...

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#49

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:31 PM UTC

eva1984 wrote: post #15

> For the profession, the downside is that it can be hard to scratch out a middle-class living. Middle-class living meaning? If it consists owning a property, then...you might need to adjust your definition of middle-class then.

[deleted]

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#50

Post by Retric » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:32 PM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #44

bootload wrote: post #2

"the salaries of pastry makers in the Chicago area do not appear to have budged much, if at all. The key to this puzzle tells us a lot about why the American economy isn’t necessarily behaving the way workers have traditionally assumed. ... Employers, according to those in the industry, have increasingly turned to less experienced workers to ensure the flow of sweets" The drive to employ cheaper, okay workers in acti…

No it really doesn't. It probably take all of 90 minutes to learn everything there is to know about making the pastries which are on the menu. Pastry-making is glorified robotics (but it's very exacting, baking is rather unforgiving compared to other forms of cooking.) Software development consists of creating a new recipe every day: you are NOT following well-defined steps.

Have you ever worked in a bakery?

Doing it well is actually a complex balancing act based on materials and the environment.

PS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect