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Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

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Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#11
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drive" is right. It often seems like even at the cost of getting inferior work-product, many employers have come to believe that cheap labor is a moral principle. If employers would rather hire lower-skilled workers than pay over $35k/year, the pastry chefs should unionize.

Or perhaps Americans are OK with the pastries produced by lower-skilled workers. Maybe they can't taste a difference.

There are actually customers for both, quality for a price, and cheap mass production.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#12
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drive" is right. It often seems like even at the cost of getting inferior work-product, many employers have come to believe that cheap labor is a moral principle. If employers would rather hire lower-skilled workers than pay over $35k/year, the pastry chefs should unionize.

Or perhaps Americans are OK with the pastries produced by lower-skilled workers. Maybe they can't taste a difference.

There's definitely something to this:

I spent most of the last 15 years in Italy, where people care about their food. They care a lot, and will absolutely discriminate between various tomatoes based on where they're grown, different kinds of pasta, and many other things to boot.

In the US, I think we tend to just look at the price and mostly go by that if the product is not clearly awful.

It is changing though: it's possible to get real Italian Parmigiano cheese at the Costco here in Bend, Oregon. Growing up, all I knew of "parmesan cheese" was that green crap that comes in a can, where they were apparently using wood pulp to bulk it up.

EDIT: BTW, this book by Tyler Cowen has some interesting stuff about "why food in the US was so bad": http://amzn.to/2dNxksx

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#13
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It often seems like even at the cost of getting inferior work-product, many customers have come to believe that cheap pastries are a moral principle." I think that's the gist of the issue. People want a $5 snack, not a $35 artisanal free-range organic pastry dining experience.

"People want a $5 snack, not a $35 artisanal free-range organic pastry dining experience." My local pâtisserie doesn't charge 5$AUD for a whole range of pastry ~ https://flickr.com/photos/bootload/albums/72157622498559456 The high prices you quote come not from materials, display or worker pay, more probably property location and market they position themselves in.

The point is that there's an upper bound for how much you can charge for a pastry. This induces an upper bound on how much you can spend to make it.

It doesn't matter how skill or how rare the worker is, if you can't sell their work for a higher price.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#14
post #2

"the salaries of pastry makers in the Chicago area do not appear to have budged much, if at all. The key to this puzzle tells us a lot about why the American economy isn’t necessarily behaving the way workers have traditionally assumed. ... Employers, according to those in the industry, have increasingly turned to less experienced workers to ensure the flow of sweets" The drive to employ cheaper, okay workers in acti…

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs.

With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more expensive software developer to produce lower-cost software if the cost savings come from better planning, more fluency with the toolset, and fewer (high-impact) bugs.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#16
There are a number of reasons why wages might not rise that have nothing to do with free market supply and demand.

The most obvious is you could control wages by being the owner of inelastic goods your workers require to live, such as housing. I think this is how the feudal system worked originally, workers produced cereals but the Land and the worker's cottages were both owned by the Landlord. If the price of bread decreased the Landlord could simply increase rents. So it was only when the factories came along that most workers managed to have any savings.

Another example is where a worker in debt, and must work at an existing job to pay for the debt. Obviously a worker without debt is a worker than could request a higher pay rate because they are able to be more competitive by obtaining a new employer.

Another example is the existence of non-compete agreements.

It should not surprise us that in London there exists widespread use of non-competes and their workers are typically indebted by student loans or mortgages, that the wages are so low. Look at any London software engineer thread if you'd like to be depressed, 300-400 a day and sometimes much less, for people with 10+ years of experience.

Another example is that I suspect that there is a conspiracy to hold down wages that involves both the government and companies price fixing. I further suspect this is a deliberate policy by at least the US and UK governments using a list of occupations they depend on to function. Scientists, engineers, programmers.

This shouldn't come as a surprise because even in Silicon Valley where the wages are the highest in the world for computer programmers, it was found that multiple well known corporations were involved in a wage fixing cartel. That however I suspect is merely amateur hour in comparison to the government and its partners.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#17

Maybe because they are only in demand at the current price point, but as soon as the price goes up, people switch to 'substitute goods'?

Right. All the employers want a pasty chef that will work for a certain amount, and demand is high at that salary. Above that salary, and demand sharply drops off.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#18

Maybe because they are only in demand at the current price point, but as soon as the price goes up, people switch to 'substitute goods'?

Not only for the labor, but for the product as well.

I know few people that dislike pastries... ok maybe they like some kinds more than others, but still...

But I know few people that like pastries at any price; at least not with any frequency. Once that price goes up too much they do look for substitute goods. Maybe mass-produces Hostess-style stuff: not great, but sufficient and cheap.

At some point, this too will resolve itself. I think you'll see some mix of price rise and demand reduction in the independent sector (with some labor rate rise, too, but only for the highly skilled) and an increase of demand in the cheap, mass production baked goods area. This will take time to shake out, but it will.

...And I could be wrong in how it will: you cannot plan economies. Not everyone will agree with that, but I have yet to see it happen successfully.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#19
post #14
post #2

"the salaries of pastry makers in the Chicago area do not appear to have budged much, if at all. The key to this puzzle tells us a lot about why the American economy isn’t necessarily behaving the way workers have traditionally assumed. ... Employers, according to those in the industry, have increasingly turned to less experienced workers to ensure the flow of sweets" The drive to employ cheaper, okay workers in acti…

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

Not only that but a cheap, inexperienced dev can create negative value. Not just in the product that they're working on but your entire brand.

Just ask LinkedIn or Yahoo if it was a good idea to put some ignorant fool in charge of the system that stored passwords. Aside: I'm sure that person is worth more now because they won't make such mistakes (again)!

Rant: Looking towards the future I want to know which ignorant fools are in charge of Microsoft's Active Directory product that is currently shipping with the same damned ignorant mistake (no salt). I mean, seriously guys: How can you allow the product to continue with such a blatant disregard for basic security?!

Microsoft is going to be the next LinkedIn if they don't fix it.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#20
Part of the reason could be the tipping system. It is impossible to raise the price of the food in your restaurant without giving a raise to your waitstaff, since almost everyone tips a fixed percentage. So if you want to give a raise to your chef, you want to fund it with a price increase, but you can't do that without giving a raise to your waiters.
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