Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? • Hacker News Board

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#61

Post by throawaybay » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:46 PM UTC

internaut wrote: post #36

dcre wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...what? If I could upvote the top half and downvote the second I would.

Why do you find the idea of a wage fixing cartel so bizarre? It's a phenomenon as old as labour markets themselves. The employer does not want a market for labour, they want a steady supply of workers for the lowest price. Since there are fewer employers than workers, it is easier to coordinate a plot against them. Also when the economy becomes more centralized and bigger companies swallow up smaller ones, you should…

I would have thought that Google and Facebook coming in would cause wages to rise?

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#62

Post by cmdrfred » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:48 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #50

logicallee wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it really doesn't. It probably take all of 90 minutes to learn everything there is to know about making the pastries which are on the menu. Pastry-making is glorified robotics (but it's very exacting, baking is rather unforgiving compared to other forms of cooking.) Software development consists of creating a new recipe every day: you are NOT following well-defined steps.

Have you ever worked in a bakery? Doing it well is actually a complex balancing act based on materials and the environment. PS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I worked in kitchens for 10 years. It's not that the task of making anything is all that difficult. It's that it takes practice to do able to bake 120 loaves of bread the same way, every night, getting it right the first time.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#63

Post by cheriot » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:50 PM UTC

blawson wrote: post #53

cheriot wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're giving away another reason. In general, Americans don't value high quality food. A croissant is a croissant to us. Tyler Cowan wrote an interesting book speculating why. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GSYYQ2/

I think by that logic no one values high quality food? A croissant in Paris is probably about 2 euros as well. If we both agree the French tend to do croissants better, and care about it more, so how come theirs don't cost significantly more?

Perhaps there's more people in Paris that know how to make awesome croissants. Maybe it's considered "fancy" food in the US and marked up accordingly. There's a lot of economic levers to push.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#64

Post by Retric » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:52 PM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #62

Retric wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever worked in a bakery? Doing it well is actually a complex balancing act based on materials and the environment. PS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I worked in kitchens for 10 years. It's not that the task of making anything is all that difficult. It's that it takes practice to do able to bake 120 loaves of bread the same way, every night, getting it right the first time.

Wasting ingredients even a fairly small percentage of the time get's really expensive. This is one of those cases where a server with 90% up-time is easy, but 99.999% is really really hard.

What I don't think people get is it's no big deal to fail say 15% of the time at home. But, bakery margins are really tight and they can't afford that kind of failure regularly.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#65

Post by maxlamb » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:54 PM UTC

Very simple, the supply of people who want to be pastry chefs is increasing just as fast, thanks to the recent crazes (cup cakes, etc) and the explosion of reality tv cooking shows in the last decade that is making that career option a much more popular choice. I know someone who just quit their high-paying consulting job to fulfill her dream of becoming a pastry chef, and willing to take a considerable pay cut for it.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#66

Post by khedoros1 » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:55 PM UTC

simtel20 wrote: post #21

hughes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

I'm noticing that you are asking a question, and then ask another question, put forward a straw man, and then say: > With software development it's a little different without having answered any questions with facts nor citing any references or even anecdotes to support the notion that there is a difference in the jobs or the impacts to the businesses in their respective industries.

I'm noticing that they effectively used a series of rhetorical questions to try to make a point. The point is that the curve of worker skill to product cost doesn't have to be the same between a pastry chef and a software developer. That concept is more interesting to me than any references would likely be.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#67

Post by Retric » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:58 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #56

Retric wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever worked in a bakery? Doing it well is actually a complex balancing act based on materials and the environment. PS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I don't know if Dunning Kruger actually applies well here. Parent is not assuming they are an expert/professional at baking, rather, Parent is assuming baking isn't difficult.

I assume they fail to grasp their ineptitude. Frequently doing a good job is not enough. In a professional setting failure has real costs and you are directly paid to minimize those failures.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#68

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:58 PM UTC

hughes wrote: post #14

bootload wrote: post #2

"the salaries of pastry makers in the Chicago area do not appear to have budged much, if at all. The key to this puzzle tells us a lot about why the American economy isn’t necessarily behaving the way workers have traditionally assumed. ... Employers, according to those in the industry, have increasingly turned to less experienced workers to ensure the flow of sweets" The drive to employ cheaper, okay workers in acti…

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

Do you really find it hard to believe that a more experienced pastry chef can make better pastries? I think this is the same frustrating myopia that makes people assume they all could easily write software the way you do except in reverse.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#69

Post by randallsquared » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:59 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #57

logicallee wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it really doesn't. It probably take all of 90 minutes to learn everything there is to know about making the pastries which are on the menu. Pastry-making is glorified robotics (but it's very exacting, baking is rather unforgiving compared to other forms of cooking.) Software development consists of creating a new recipe every day: you are NOT following well-defined steps.

Every time I dip my toes in some creative field that others take seriously, I find way more depth than was apparent from the outside. I have yet to find a hobby worth doing where I don't consistently think, "Wow, I'm so much better at this than I was last year/month/week." And I keep feeling that way no matter how much time I put into it. Over hundreds of years, thousands of people have dedicated their lives to pastr…

An anecdote against: I've been making beef fried rice for a little over a decade (but probably less than 500 times total). The best I could do in the first year was probably nearly as good as the best I could do five years in, and five years in was easily as good as any I could do now. It's a very simple dish, but then, that's the argument about these pastries as well.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#70

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 11:59 PM UTC

riskable wrote: post #38

zanny wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheap, inexperienced pastry chefs can also ruin a restaurants reputation if they screw up too badly. You get the quality you pay for.

Ah, but a pastry chef can only disappoint so many customers at once. A single stupid mistake by a software developer can impact millions . The Yahoo leak alone was half a billion users . That's a lot of dough!

Ask Chipotle if that matters.