Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 441 posts

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#221

Post by danarmak »

rmc wrote: post #162
danarmak wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is very useful in most cases. Suppose a service requires data transmission to operate, either intrinsically, or it just chooses to require it. It displays a checkbox, unchecked by default, and unless the user checks it, the service isn't going to work; checking the checkbox is functionally equivalent to the "I Agree" TOS button. I expect users will check the checkbox without reading any explanation…

> Suppose a service requires data transmission to operate, either intrinsically, or it just chooses to require it No services really requires data transmission. It's just the owners have decided to run it that way. > I expect users will check the checkbox without reading any explanations, just as today they click "I Agree" without reading anything. Within EU Data Protection law, you have to get "freely given, informe…

> No services really requires data transmission.

Some services do. For instance, Waze builds live traffic maps because all its users upload their locations / speed / etc.

> It's just the owners have decided to run it that way.

Which is their right, as long as the users give informed consent. What I would like to know is how, in practice, such consent can be sought or given.

> And a checkbox which links to 30 pages of legalese does not necessarily count as informed consent.

I'm not saying it does, necessarily. I'm asking what does count as informed consent? Can you give an example of consent done right?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#222

Post by jimmytidey »

bogomipz wrote: post #159
jimmytidey wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural monopolies are very often regulated because of the negative side effects of not doing so. Which is to say, market dominance has transformed products into utilities in the past. You can argue that should not be the case, but, historically, it very much has been. There's surely a balance to be struck between incentivising firms to innovate by allowing them to earn profits when they develop a good product and al…

Can you give examples of the natural monopolies you are referring to?

Most classic utilities were at one point or another provided privately - water, telephones, electricity are examples. In each of these examples the delivery infrastructure makes them a natural monopoly.

Almost any activity you can think of has been carried out by both the public and private sector in different societies (or the same one).

In all industries, very dominant firms are likely to see action from the state.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#223

Post by FabHK »

olegious wrote: post #190
FabHK wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP is not objecting to Facebook telling him that John Smith liked the article, too. He is objecting (I think) to the fact that Facebook knows who he is (as evidenced by knowing who his friends are), and knows that he just read that article (as evidenced by telling him who among his friends liked it). And that is creepy, I think, and one reason I have all the good adblockers and tracking blockers and cookie cleaners t…

If you're logged into FB and there is a relationship between the site and FB, then why is it a surprise that the site is able to id you? And when I say "you" I don't mean "John Smith from sf working for company X" but a number with some generalized demographic data attached. There are strict pii guidelines that adtech has to follow, no one really knows who you are. FB and other adtech giants need to do a much better…

Most people, I submit, don't log out of FB, they just close that browser tab. So, basically, most people are always logged into FB.

Next, there is no obvious relationship between the site and FB - it's some random article on some random other site, say the NY Times, on some random, say potentially embarrassing topic. However, there's a FB "like" button, or some other tracker.

Now, the site might just get some ID with demographic data (and hobbies and what have you). But FB now knows that you read that article (how could it have told you, otherwise, that John Smith read it?). That might not be a surprise to you, having some knowledge in the industry, but I submit that many if not most people find it both surprising and creepy.

Next, your argument seems to be that with some more education people would not find it surprising, and neither creepy, because adtech is so well behaved and under strict guidelines and "no evil" and all. So, at that point we'll just have to disagree.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#224

Post by FabHK »

jooize wrote: post #180
FabHK wrote: post #130

Can everyone just please install Wire [1]: * free, * end-to-end encrypted * text and voice chat * with pictures and group chat and what have you, * using the Signal/OpenWhisper protocol, * with desktop and web clients, * open source (GPLv3, and on github [2]), * signup with phone number or email, * based in Switzerland, * what else can you ask for? Signal itself of course is pretty good, secure (recommended by Ed Sno…

> * using the Signal/OpenWhisper protocol, Developer of Signal says: > Wire does not use Signal Protocol. They used some of our code, but created a protocol of their own devising that we do not recommend. — moxie, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12149642

Very interesting, wasn't aware of that.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#225

Post by ryandrake »

sygma wrote: post #121
0xmohit wrote: post #36

Quoting from the link: Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was willing to work with the German regulator to address its concerns. Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]: Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have not forced anybo…

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision Yes, it is voluntary, but it would be socially alienating not to be on that service. Here's a relevant talk [0] by Moxie Marlinspike talking about that. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG0KrT6pBPk&feature=youtu.be...

Now, going without Facebook or IM is "socially alienating"? People's social lives must be pretty fragile these days if they really require things that did not even exist for the majority of humanity's existence.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#227

Post by tw04 »

ryandrake wrote: post #219
tw04 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really... If all of my friends buy a Starbucks latte, I'm not forced to also buy a Starbucks latte just to interact with them. I could hang out with them at Starbucks drinking a Caribou latte, or not drink any coffee at all. If all my friends buy Jordans, I don't have to buy a pair of Jordans to join their game of pickup basketball. Heck I don't even need shoes (not recommended but to each his own). If all of my…

Or to call them on the phone, talk to them in person, send them an E-mail or letter.. You know, the things we all did in ancient times like 5 years ago?

Yes, it's completely reasonable to replace real-time group chat with... a conference call among 6 friends?

Hey guys, I know ALL of you chat with WhatsApp, but can we move to email just for me and my concerns around security that you don't care about at all?

Seriously... you can make completely unreasonable suggestions until you're blue in the face but it's not going to change reality. There are very real social pressures at play in this discussion. Yes, it turns out peer pressure is a real thing and has a very prominent role in this discussion.

Do you really think Facebook would've spent $19* BILLION on WhatsApp if they thought people would be willing to drop it at the first sign of inconvenience? They know they've got lock-in through sheer market adoption of the platform. If they didn't, they would've just stuck with the facebook messenger path they were already heading down.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#228

Post by flaviojuvenal »

thr0waway1239 wrote: post #164
woliveirajr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting when you confront this with those decisions of Brazilian courts of suspending /blocking WhatsApp during some days. Because the response, from the court order, is always "Facebook and WhatsApp are separeted companies, you are asking Facebook (that has a office in Brazil) to answer for WhatsApp (that hasn't), Facebook doesn't have access to any meta-data from WhatsApp (including which user talked to another…

If this is true, then Facebook might find itself in quite some bother now or in the future. Can you provide a reference?

Here is the reference. It's the text of one of judicial decisions that blocked Whatsapp in Brazil (translated to English): https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u...

The relevant part is: "the other company, based in the country, has no "powers" on the company of your own conglomerate".

Note: in the same paragraph it says "a company does not have established in Germany". It's a Translator bug. The correct is: "one company is not established in the country".

Original text is at: http://tecnologia.uol.com.br/noticias/redacao/2016/07/19/vej...

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#229

Post by bogomipz »

chii wrote: post #16
icantdrive55 wrote: post #10

I would like to see a federal Staute inacted regarding the collection of user data in the US. Enacted quickly! Something on the lines of don't collect any data, besides name, password, email address. This information can never be sold. I have weird feeling, in the near future, we will find that information/data has been abused. No just abused by marketing/big data, etc.. And I'm not even arguing about the obvious--pe…

> Something on the lines of don't collect any data, besides name, password, email address. This information can never be sold. Would you then pay for the services in full that you now could use for free?

I for one would pay for a service that agreed not sell my data and afford me basic privacy assurances. I don't think I am alone in that either. And Whatsapp did have a subscription fee in the past, before it was bought by a dominant player for 19 Billion.

But I can't see why a company like FB would be interested in offering a privacy enhanced version of this service. What could they reasonably expect a user to pay, 10 dollars a month? User data brings in far more revenue than that 10 dollars per user per month. I would think that 10 dollars is peanuts to them by comparison.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#230

Post by kuschku »

ryandrake wrote: post #213
bikamonki wrote: post #147

You can go get an off-contract sim card, use it on a clean Android, create a fake gmail account in order to download and install Whatsapp. Now you make connections (you add family and friends to your contacts) and start communicating. By now both FB and Google know who you are simply b/c other people in your network, not concerned with privacy, have you saved on their contacts list, pressumably under your first and l…

You could always, I dunno... stop using Facebook and WhatsApp and other software that you find harmful. I know, totally crazy idea. Just throwing it out there.

Network effects – at this point even some schools and newspapers are heavily using WhatsApp – make that impossible.

Which means either WhatsApp is replaced by something else, or it becomes as regulated as any governmental media.

EDIT: A bank already replaced most of their support channels with a WhatsApp chat.

It IS a utility at that point.

Post reply on HN