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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#161

Post by technofiend »

bikamonki wrote: post #147

You can go get an off-contract sim card, use it on a clean Android, create a fake gmail account in order to download and install Whatsapp. Now you make connections (you add family and friends to your contacts) and start communicating. By now both FB and Google know who you are simply b/c other people in your network, not concerned with privacy, have you saved on their contacts list, pressumably under your first and l…

>THERE IS NO ESCAPE. Unless you do what they themselves say you should do if you do not agree with the terms: don't use their services.

Or as so many others have called out in the thread - you get legislative relief.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#162

Post by rmc »

danarmak wrote: post #104
wsy wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German law requires to use opt-in, i.e. the default setting of agreements to transfer data to other parties must be 'no' (or the checkbox must be empty). That way, it is very easy to make sure there is explicit consent to transfer of data, and the service provider can't hide it in the TOS. Of course, the service provider is also free to limit or close its services to users that do not consent. That is actually what t…

I don't think this is very useful in most cases. Suppose a service requires data transmission to operate, either intrinsically, or it just chooses to require it. It displays a checkbox, unchecked by default, and unless the user checks it, the service isn't going to work; checking the checkbox is functionally equivalent to the "I Agree" TOS button. I expect users will check the checkbox without reading any explanation…

> Suppose a service requires data transmission to operate, either intrinsically, or it just chooses to require it

No services really requires data transmission. It's just the owners have decided to run it that way.

> I expect users will check the checkbox without reading any explanations, just as today they click "I Agree" without reading anything.

Within EU Data Protection law, you have to get "freely given, informed consent" for things. And a checkbox which links to 30 pages of legalese does not necessarily count as informed consent. Just because your users clicked a checkbox/clickthrough, that doesn't mean you're in the clear legally.

> if this is a legal requirement, then service providers are greatly incentivized to require data transmission as a condition of using the service

Unrestricted data transmission (and processing) is not legal in the EU. EU fundamental rights law specifies that. So you can't necessarily create a service which from the start requires that sort of agreement.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#163

Post by FabHK »

anotheryou wrote: post #139
FabHK wrote: post #130

Can everyone just please install Wire [1]: * free, * end-to-end encrypted * text and voice chat * with pictures and group chat and what have you, * using the Signal/OpenWhisper protocol, * with desktop and web clients, * open source (GPLv3, and on github [2]), * signup with phone number or email, * based in Switzerland, * what else can you ask for? Signal itself of course is pretty good, secure (recommended by Ed Sno…

I have free choice on which messenger to use, but no choice at all on which messenger to reach my friends. And sadly I know I'd loose all the less close long distance friends if I refused to talk about private things on facebook all-together. It was hard enough to make some people switch to telegram, but at least some of my frequent contacts arrived there. On signal I've been lonely ever since, no Idea how to make pe…

> I have free choice on which messenger to use, but no choice at all on which messenger to reach my friends

A problem indeed, that's why I'm begging everyone to install it...

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#164

Post by thr0waway1239 »

woliveirajr wrote: post #129
0xmohit wrote: post #36

Quoting from the link: Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was willing to work with the German regulator to address its concerns. Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]: Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have not forced anybo…

Interesting when you confront this with those decisions of Brazilian courts of suspending /blocking WhatsApp during some days. Because the response, from the court order, is always "Facebook and WhatsApp are separeted companies, you are asking Facebook (that has a office in Brazil) to answer for WhatsApp (that hasn't), Facebook doesn't have access to any meta-data from WhatsApp (including which user talked to another…

If this is true, then Facebook might find itself in quite some bother now or in the future. Can you provide a reference?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#165

Post by anexprogrammer »

corndoge wrote: post #114
logn wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision Once a critical mass uses a messaging service, it's not a completely voluntary decision, especially when there is no open standard with interoperable competing apps.

This is false. Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility. What I mean is that simply because a proprietary product has a large mass of users does not mean the users have the right to demand that it be regulated like a public utility.

I imagine the electric companies made similar arguments at the start of the 20th century.

> Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility

Agreed. Isn't it more that it becomes so ubiquitous and expected that it starts to be considered a basic utility by the public? In the case of social and IM it's the network effect that matters - where are family and friends.

Once a certain tipping point was reached you'd be hard pushed to find many willing to live without mains water or electric. These days you'd be hard pushed to find many willing to live without internet, social networking, and IM chat. They're becoming utilities, and quotes like from their counsel "well just don't use it, it's optional" ring, for the majority of the public, increasingly hollow.

Just as our definition of essentials, poverty, minimum income and inflation (in the UK at least) have all been adjusted to reflect the internet age and provide for internet connections, mobile phones etc, our defnition of utilities should too.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#166

Post by RodericDay »

bikamonki wrote: post #147

You can go get an off-contract sim card, use it on a clean Android, create a fake gmail account in order to download and install Whatsapp. Now you make connections (you add family and friends to your contacts) and start communicating. By now both FB and Google know who you are simply b/c other people in your network, not concerned with privacy, have you saved on their contacts list, pressumably under your first and l…

no reason not to make it as hard as possible on them. it makes it easier for alternatives to exist in their shadow.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#167

Post by JoeAltmaier »

anexprogrammer wrote: post #165
corndoge wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility. What I mean is that simply because a proprietary product has a large mass of users does not mean the users have the right to demand that it be regulated like a public utility.

I imagine the electric companies made similar arguments at the start of the 20th century. > Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility Agreed. Isn't it more that it becomes so ubiquitous and expected that it starts to be considered a basic utility by the public? In the case of social and IM it's the network effect that matters - where are family and friends. Once a certain tipping…

I'm doubtful. With that definition, lattes should be made a utility. So should shoes. Tires.

A utility is indicated by, requiring so heavy an investment in infrastructure that would be onerous to the public to support duplicates.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#168

Post by FabHK »

vazamb wrote: post #145
leshow wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram is a terrible platform and not at all comparable to signal.

Could you elaborate? I am using Telegram not because of privacy concerns but because of the desktop and tablet clients. I had absolutely no issues so far.

Telegram's weak points, as far as I can tell:

* chats not end-to-end encrypted by default (only secure chats), so clear text is on their servers

* group chats can't be secure chats

* the crypto is somewhat unconventional. While the developers had their reasons (constraints of mobile platforms), and no exploit has been found so far, AFAIK, any self-rolled crypto is a bit of a red flag to cryptographers.

* I have no reason to distrust Pavel Durov or his motives, but I am somewhat skeptical of services based in Russia (also, just to be clear, of services based in the USA or other five eyes).

To me, Wire might be the best of both worlds (as I've said in another post in this thread, and BTW I am not connected to them in any way):

Signal protocol; based in Switzerland; smartphone, desktop and web client; free; text and voice chat and group chat; open source (GPLv3, and on github); signup with phone number or email.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#169

Post by digitalengineer »

0xmohit wrote: post #36

Quoting from the link: Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was willing to work with the German regulator to address its concerns. Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]: Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have not forced anybo…

What about the dark profiles? You're in all your friends/family's address book. You'll get profiled even without FB or Whatsapp.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#170

Post by kuschku »

Tomte wrote: post #3

Hamburg's data commissioner is influential because he is very active and outspoken (the previous one was even more so), but that also means that he's a bit fast and loose. His opinions and rulings are not always held up by the courts, and the other states' data commissioners (there are fifteen more, plus a federal one) quite often don't agree with him.

Although the data commissioner of Schleswig-Holstein almost always backs Hamburg’s commissioner.
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