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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#101

Post by danarmak »

pdkl95 wrote: post #89
danarmak wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users already opt into using a service like WhatsApp. They are presented with TOS on first use / account creation. Whatsapp changed their TOS and presented the new TOS to existing users when they first opened the app after the change. Doesn't this already satisfy your requirements? It is, of course, well known that users never read TOS / EULA for software or services.

> WhatsApp I'm not talking about WhatsApp. > users never read TOS / EULA Then the user hasn't given informed consent! It's the responsibility of the collecting party to make sure that the user is aware of all aspects of the transaction.

How? If the TOS text is displayed, and the user clicks OK, how can the service provider make sure the user actually read it, let alone understood it correctly?

Should the user be required to correctly answer some quiz questions about the TOS every time they use the product? I don't think any users would agree to that, for any product.

Do you have a positive example of how to do this successfully?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#102

Post by tsunamifury »

saiya-jin wrote: post #90
smoyer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that blog post when the acquisition was announced ... And laughed! While it feels like the (then) WhatsApp CEO was sincere, did anyone really believe that Zuckerberg would be a hands-off owner? Or that his public-only data content ideas wouldn't become dominant? I'll agree that I think this move contradicts his blog post but I also don't think the purchased entity gets to set the terms after agreeing to be bou…

you wouldn't pay 2 billion for messaging app with few hundred millions of users that is without ads and doesn't make any money to be philanthropic about it, would you (or anybody else)

22 billion

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#103

Post by tw04 »

smoyer wrote: post #7

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I think it's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. My hope is that the increasing outrage will drive users to one of the secure messaging appl…

No, what's more interesting is previously Whatsapp users had a reasonable expectation of privacy. Facebook acquired the company without first checking with the EU or anyone else if they would oppose them removing that privacy and mining user data. Now they're caught between a rock and a hard place because they need to spy in users to justify the purchase price, but they never bothered to ask if it was OK with regulators first.

Saying "users don't have to use us" after there's already a massive, massive installed base is ridiculous and Facebook knows it. If it were just as easy as switching to another messaging service they NEVER would've paid that much money for Whatsapp. It brings almost nothing unique to the table outside of it's user base/momentum.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#104

Post by danarmak »

wsy wrote: post #85
danarmak wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a real problem. What's the alternative? The TOS does need to express the desired purpose and to hold up in court if required. Some licenses are much simpler than others, but some are necessarily complex. The GPL is much shorter than most click-through TOSs, but an average user still isn't going to read it.

German law requires to use opt-in, i.e. the default setting of agreements to transfer data to other parties must be 'no' (or the checkbox must be empty). That way, it is very easy to make sure there is explicit consent to transfer of data, and the service provider can't hide it in the TOS. Of course, the service provider is also free to limit or close its services to users that do not consent. That is actually what t…

I don't think this is very useful in most cases. Suppose a service requires data transmission to operate, either intrinsically, or it just chooses to require it. It displays a checkbox, unchecked by default, and unless the user checks it, the service isn't going to work; checking the checkbox is functionally equivalent to the "I Agree" TOS button. I expect users will check the checkbox without reading any explanations, just as today they click "I Agree" without reading anything.

And if this is a legal requirement, then service providers are greatly incentivized to require data transmission as a condition of using the service. If it's optional, then very few users will go into settings and enable it. If it's mandatory, then all users are going to agree, in order to use the service.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#105

Post by logn »

0xmohit wrote: post #36

Quoting from the link: Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was willing to work with the German regulator to address its concerns. Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]: Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have not forced anybo…

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision

Once a critical mass uses a messaging service, it's not a completely voluntary decision, especially when there is no open standard with interoperable competing apps.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#106

Post by fauigerzigerk »

bpchaps wrote: post #91
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The reason why government should forbid it is not to protect the individual that's agreeing to give away their data, but to protect society from the externalities of those transactions when they occur en masse. And now please explain to me what sort of voluntary agreement does not have negative externalities when it occurs en masse! Voluntary agreements inevitably create markets and markets have well known negative…

How does it lead to authoritarianism? You're making some pretty sweeping statements there..

Because there are no personal freedoms that cannot be taken away if negative externalities alone are a sufficient justification.

Outright bans are the strictest form of regulation. They should only be used as a last resort.

We don't even ban industrial scale cruelty towards animals and now we should ban voluntary trade in personal data? That seems completely out of proportion.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#107

Post by dilemma »

ominous wrote: post #12
microtonal wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I thinkmit's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. The difference in this particular case is that Whatsapp made an explicit promise that they…

Where does it say that Facebook will respect that blog post?

That blog post is written and published by Facebook on their own website.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#108

Post by Kenji »

Dayshine wrote: post #78
Kenji wrote: post #23

I don't understand why the state has to become involved. Let the free market work and people decide for themselves. I stopped using WhatsApp the moment I read that facebook bought it.

Because the free market is very slow, and it's a greater total harm. Would you rather your child learned which items are hot by scarring themselves each time?

So, we the people are essentially children and the state is the parent? Nice metaphor, you just proved my point that the state should not interfere.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#109

Post by ajuc »

0xmohit wrote: post #36

Quoting from the link: Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was willing to work with the German regulator to address its concerns. Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]: Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have not forced anybo…

Using a cellphone is voluntarily, too.

Post office as well.

Can phone operators sell the social graph of users to 3rd parties, then?

It's so dumb...

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#110

Post by leshow »

teekert wrote: post #11
smoyer wrote: post #7

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I think it's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. My hope is that the increasing outrage will drive users to one of the secure messaging appl…

Whatsapp gained massive users with their "no commercials ever" claim. They were a small independent company. And people arguably got invested in the network as a result. Now they reverse on that but the public feels locked in. I myself think... just switch to Signal or Telegram, but the amount of WA users is simply massive here in the EU. Everybody uses it.

Telegram is a terrible platform and not at all comparable to signal.
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