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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#71

Post by belorn »

Klathmon wrote: post #53
belorn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a sale person stood on the street and offered people to install tracking software in their phones that will record every move, every call, every text, which the customer is told will be sold at a nice profit to any one thats willing to buy it with no oversight. At the end of one year, non-poor customer that the company earned profits from from will get a one time compensation of $20. How many people will accept th…

They exist, and they do very well. Things like Nielson and others have been doing something similar for many years, as well as countless surveys that can pay you, and both of my parents have installed on seperate occasions a toolbar which pays them pennies per day they keep it enabled, and when asked about it they were fine with it recording everything as long as they get their payout.

I have seen those, but they are like you say about "pennies per day". Google could not survive on that.

If we are comparing a regular $40-$20 software sale to pay-by-tracking, then the people being tracked need to generate personal information that is worth equal amounts. It need to have mass market appeal in order to generate billions. How will pennies per day tool-bars do that?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#72

Post by treehau5 »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #39
bonoboTP wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe yes, maybe not. So what? It should still be forbidden. If it turns out that not enough people want to pay for it, then tough luck for the company, they should design something that people will pay for. For example it is forbidden to take organs from people as payment. We could forbid taking certain private data from masses of people as payment.

If you put trade in organs in the same basket as trade in conclusions from personal data, then I have to wonder what you put in the other basket, the one where consenting adults are allowed to freely enter into agreements. If you are criticising that people are not willingly and knowingly entering into agreements with Facebook or Google, that is another debate. Yes I think there should be the utmost level of transpar…

We already allow our government to make decisions on access to personal data for services -- it's called HIPAA.

The difference between that and seemingly "ordinary" data is that HIPAA data can be used against us unfairly.

I argue that's the case now, and we have proof it is already happening. You better bet your bottom dollar insurance companies and the likes are mining social media to charge different prices based on silly facebook posts

http://www.cnbc.com/2014/04/16/data-mining-is-now-used-to-se...

It's only a matter of time before police forces will begin to use these same techniques to "optimize policing"

We live in a different time now. Our data is not as harmless as it used to be. Hackers can attack various sources of services and build complete picture of peoples lives. Companies are using data mining techniques to leverage people's private interaction with friends and families against them. The worst part about it is -- it's complicated, and we have a technically inept Congress that barely understands the implications of all these technologies, and we will soon have a technically inept soon to be incumbent president, so these legal issues are not going to get any better.

this, plus what zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC mentioned, until we have the right to "be forgotten" or the ability to have our records completely purged after a period of time -- like you do with debt, like you do with criminal records, like you do with basically any public record, we will have these privacy issues. Right now if you want to purge false information about yourself on the internet, you have to go through hell and back (trust me, I've tried, Salon has had a completely fabricated story about me for almost 10 years now. I send an email every week asking them to redact my name from that article. Unless I seemingly spend hundreds of thousands to fight their legal arm, it's probably never going to change.)

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#73

Post by [deleted] »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #39
bonoboTP wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe yes, maybe not. So what? It should still be forbidden. If it turns out that not enough people want to pay for it, then tough luck for the company, they should design something that people will pay for. For example it is forbidden to take organs from people as payment. We could forbid taking certain private data from masses of people as payment.

If you put trade in organs in the same basket as trade in conclusions from personal data, then I have to wonder what you put in the other basket, the one where consenting adults are allowed to freely enter into agreements. If you are criticising that people are not willingly and knowingly entering into agreements with Facebook or Google, that is another debate. Yes I think there should be the utmost level of transpar…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#74

Post by danarmak »

pdkl95 wrote: post #60
icantdrive55 wrote: post #10

I would like to see a federal Staute inacted regarding the collection of user data in the US. Enacted quickly! Something on the lines of don't collect any data, besides name, password, email address. This information can never be sold. I have weird feeling, in the near future, we will find that information/data has been abused. No just abused by marketing/big data, etc.. And I'm not even arguing about the obvious--pe…

> any data, besides name, password, email address Collect any data you want if and only if you have the informed consent of the user. This means explaining in detail what you're intending to collect and gaining permission first (opt-in). > This information can never be sold. Sell the information if you want (that was collected with informed consent of the user), but collecting data brings a responsibility of care for…

Users already opt into using a service like WhatsApp. They are presented with TOS on first use / account creation. Whatsapp changed their TOS and presented the new TOS to existing users when they first opened the app after the change.

Doesn't this already satisfy your requirements?

It is, of course, well known that users never read TOS / EULA for software or services.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#75

Post by danarmak »

chii wrote: post #16
icantdrive55 wrote: post #10

I would like to see a federal Staute inacted regarding the collection of user data in the US. Enacted quickly! Something on the lines of don't collect any data, besides name, password, email address. This information can never be sold. I have weird feeling, in the near future, we will find that information/data has been abused. No just abused by marketing/big data, etc.. And I'm not even arguing about the obvious--pe…

> Something on the lines of don't collect any data, besides name, password, email address. This information can never be sold. Would you then pay for the services in full that you now could use for free?

I would gladly pay for every single service I use - email, messaging, social networks, various sites - in exchange for no advertising and no user data collection.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#76

Post by rglullis »

kaybe wrote: post #64
rglullis wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sad to inform you, this is a horrible trap you and many Europeans fall into. All of this legislation comes from lobby groups representing the big telcos, who are just desperately looking for ways to keep the OTT's away. Just a couple of weeks ago a draft bill was published indicating that OTT's must be able to comply with the same regulations as a telco, which means, among things like "ability to call emergency s…

So would you say the situation is worse than elsewhere? Especially considering we are not US citizens and thus free game under the US constitution.

All that I can say is that if we actually had free markets, one's citizenship wouldn't matter at all. For better or for worse, it would be up to individuals to inform ourselves and seek privacy, security and financial profits as we see fit.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#77

Post by danarmak »

rmc wrote: post #56
kbart wrote: post #14

“It has to be their decision, whether they want to connect their account with Facebook,” Johannes Caspar, the Hamburg data protection commissioner, said in a statement. “Therefore, Facebook has to ask for their permission in advance. This has not happened.” That's a fair point. I don't use WhatsApp, so did it asked to accept new privacy policy, terms & conditions or smth? Anyway, I'm happy to see that institutions in…

I don't think dense legalise in a click through can count as "consent"

This is a real problem. What's the alternative? The TOS does need to express the desired purpose and to hold up in court if required. Some licenses are much simpler than others, but some are necessarily complex. The GPL is much shorter than most click-through TOSs, but an average user still isn't going to read it.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#78

Post by Dayshine »

Kenji wrote: post #23

I don't understand why the state has to become involved. Let the free market work and people decide for themselves. I stopped using WhatsApp the moment I read that facebook bought it.

Because the free market is very slow, and it's a greater total harm.

Would you rather your child learned which items are hot by scarring themselves each time?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#79

Post by alkonaut »

chii wrote: post #16
icantdrive55 wrote: post #10

I would like to see a federal Staute inacted regarding the collection of user data in the US. Enacted quickly! Something on the lines of don't collect any data, besides name, password, email address. This information can never be sold. I have weird feeling, in the near future, we will find that information/data has been abused. No just abused by marketing/big data, etc.. And I'm not even arguing about the obvious--pe…

> Something on the lines of don't collect any data, besides name, password, email address. This information can never be sold. Would you then pay for the services in full that you now could use for free?

> Would you then pay for the services in full that you now could use for free?

I don't use them free, I pay with my information. I just don't know exactly how much I'm paying.

I'm happy to pay in either form, as long as I know exactly what I'm paying.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#80

Post by fauigerzigerk »

treehau5 wrote: post #72
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you put trade in organs in the same basket as trade in conclusions from personal data, then I have to wonder what you put in the other basket, the one where consenting adults are allowed to freely enter into agreements. If you are criticising that people are not willingly and knowingly entering into agreements with Facebook or Google, that is another debate. Yes I think there should be the utmost level of transpar…

We already allow our government to make decisions on access to personal data for services -- it's called HIPAA. The difference between that and seemingly "ordinary" data is that HIPAA data can be used against us unfairly. I argue that's the case now, and we have proof it is already happening. You better bet your bottom dollar insurance companies and the likes are mining social media to charge different prices based o…

I'm not arguing against all regulation. I'm arguing against an outright ban on voluntary trading of personal data.
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