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Why do so few humans kill themselves?

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Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#161

Post by nibs »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #132
nibs wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium is an element, not just a medication. The element is used to medicate people with bipolar, in huge dosages. You and I both consume lithium every day. We may consume slightly more or less than others. The ones who consume slightly more kill themselves significantly less, with no side effects. Lithium the medication is in 100-1000x the dosages, hence the side effects. If it is bad in high (but naturally occurri…

> Lithium is an element, not just a medication. It doesn't matter if you call it an element or a medication, it has non-negligible medical effects and side effects. If it had no relevant effects, we wouldn't be discussing it here. > The ones who consume slightly more kill themselves significantly less, with no side effects. "No side effects" is an impossible claim to make. The studies we do have show a correlation be…

In that study, the water the people were drinking was up to 20x what was on the high end of the other study. If you are drinking water that is 20-100x higher in lithium, that is more like taking the lithium pills than it is like getting it from water. Further to that, the study proved nothing statistically significant... So if 20x higher lithium concentration causes no statistically significant downsides, what could the harm of being on the upper bound of what is typical in areas that are not lithium mines be?

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#162

Post by Practicality »

Bartweiss wrote: post #95
kdamken wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity - was the pain fixed when you woke back up? Because brief, intense pain like that is one thing, but experiencing pain all day, everyday is a very different beast. Even if it's a tenth of the pain that you felt, that kind of thing really wears on you, especially after years and years and no help from doctors.

This, I think, is relevant to the idea that suicide is very strongly tied to exhaustion and hopelessness. Pain and grief, even when they are absolutely horrible, don't appear to be strongly correlated with suicide. Inescapable problems, even when they are not so severe, absolutely do. Broadly, people seem to turn to suicide either when their circumstances seem unimprovable (chronic pain, inescapable debt, irreparable…

I strongly agree! I think part of the reason I (and probably many others) don't see pain as something that would lead to suicide is because I would (and do) simply accept it as a fact and I no longer see it as a problem.

Kind of like being short, or not as smart as the next guy. It's just the way it is. No point worrying about it.

However, if you viewed it as a serious problem and when is it going to be fixed and then... never... yeah, that would be very different.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#163

Post by ComodoHacker »

tribune wrote: post #15

Remember that it's technically a valid evolutionary strategy to live to, say, 25, have a few kids, then off yourself. Suicide before reproduction is all that would be selected against.

If this strategy had proven valid, we would die around 30.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#164

Post by dragonwriter »

rdslw wrote: post #160

This question is much more interesting when you realize that modern neuroscience is (slowly) going more and more into area that there is no free will in humans. What is a reason to live if they are not your decisions driving it? Skipping over all (judical etc) consequences, if this is true, then life has no sense and it's more/less ok to end it - what's funny, suicide would also not be your (as in free will) decision…

> This question is much more interesting where you realize that modern neuroscience is (slowly) going more and more into area that there is no free will in humans.

Science inherently approaches the universe in a way which leaves no room for materially meaningful "free will"; only strict material determination and randomness.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#165

Post by guard-of-terra »

Practicality wrote: post #142
guard-of-terra wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we humans for some reason have ridiculously wide pain gauge. I can only theorize that we've got super pain sensitivity along with super brain. Humans are very often disabled by pain alone, with neligible body damage. That's clearly evolutionary disadvantageous. Makes torture possible, etc. Relevant xkcd: http://xkcd.com/883/

It's so you can taste ridiculously hot peppers ;)

For some reason I easily tolerate very spicy food but I have huge fear of pain.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#166

Post by goatforce5 »

mikeash wrote: post #116
goatforce5 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most of us, committing suicide is unimaginable. Sometimes people find themselves in situations where the unimaginable is a better option than whatever it is they're facing. The act is equally horrific, but preferable to the alternative. > At least 200 people are believed to have fallen or jumped to their deaths [from the World Trade Centre on 9/11] while other estimates say the number is half of that or fewer. [.…

I don't think the WTC jumpers are quite the same. They were faced with certain death or near certain death, and they naturally chose the latter. Falls from a great height are survivable, very very rarely. I see this an example of the human drive to survive: when faced with death, we'll try anything that offers any sort of hope, even just a slight delay.

> when faced with death, we'll try anything that offers any sort of hope, even just a slight delay

Many people opt-out of aggressive cancer treatments that may add months on to their lives, and increasingly euthanasia is a (legal) alternative to letting medical conditions run their course.

There are situations where ending things early can be one of the valid choices made available to you.

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/200381-the-so-called-psychot...

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#167

Post by saiko-chriskun »

mikeash wrote: post #63
spdustin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is said that pain is a fact, a by-product of life and the human condition. But suffering is a choice. Many simply choose not to suffer with their pain.

What a terrifying sentiment. I'm astonished at how attracted people are to theories where problems are necessarily the fault of the person experiencing them. Hey, if you're suffering, there's an easy solution: just choose not to! Gee, why didn't I ever think of that.

is it really that astonishing? it means that you're in complete control of your experience. quite a powerful statement. this isn't a blame game, no one's pointing fingers at anyone and saying, 'gee just think more positively man" or whatever. it's a personal strategy for managing one's own suffering, and a quite powerful one at that.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#168

Post by colmvp »

abandonliberty wrote: post #133
Practicality wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to a desire to live, not everyone views suffering as the worst possible thing. If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. The loss in experience is worse than any level of pain. For the obvious counterpoint: I say that from experience not naivete. I've had a nerve in my hand accidentally sliced lengthwise (for a significant length) b…

15 years ago I may have said something similar. I'm going to try to shed a little light on how chronic pain and disability is a bit different than acute. I've lived with chronic pain for over 10 years. As a registered person with disabilities, college resources helped me get by - but these did not exist in the real world for someone like me. It prevented me from working in my field of study and preference and severel…

You nailed it.

Chronic pain can be really, really, debilitating.

Think about what you are going to do in a few hours. Maybe you'll hop on public transit to meetup with someone. Or maybe bike somewhere. Or take a shower. Or make a sandwich. Or make love.

Now imagine if you had a really bad joint (ankle, knee) or back. Suddenly, taking public transit has additional complexities, like does the station have a lot of stairs and a lengthy distance to the train? Will I be able to get a seat? Or if I'm biking, is my commute going to flare up my joint/back? If I take a shower, I can't stand too long lest a joint start to get painful. Besides, I have to 'save' my pain threshold for situations that are a bit less controlled like walking to the bank or returning an item.

Whereas most people can spend 100% concentration on their surroundings, I have to expend mental energy thinking "Where's the next seat? How long am I standing up for? Am I causing damage to myself?" When science and medicine can't do much, and quality of life drops dramatically, it's hard not to think about alternatives.

Death is permanent but it does have one advantage: it's silent. There's no more pain.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#169

Post by coldtea »

klibertp wrote: post #127
Practicality wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to a desire to live, not everyone views suffering as the worst possible thing. If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. The loss in experience is worse than any level of pain. For the obvious counterpoint: I say that from experience not naivete. I've had a nerve in my hand accidentally sliced lengthwise (for a significant length) b…

> If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. Scratch that: ~~~No, you (most probably) wouldn't.~~~ EDIT: this post is about severe chronic pain. Think cancer, or a serious toothache which lasts for years. And it's not meant to discuss the specific situation of the parent! I'm talking in general. I also agree that not 100% patients with severe ch…

>I also agree that not 100% patients with severe chronic pain will consider suicide, however the percentage of people considering suicide in such group is much higher than in the rest of the population. You may believe so right now, but that's totally irrelevant

It doesn't matter if the "the percentage of people considering suicide in such group is much higher than in the rest of the population" if that percentage is still small within such a group.

E.g. if 1% kills themselves in the general population, while 2% or even 5% kill themselves in such a group, that's still 95%, an overwhelming majority, that do not.

In which case, what the parent thinks now is not "totally irrelevant" but mostly correct.

>And there is no notion of being brave (or not) once it actually happens to you - there's only despair and suffering. Really, only that. Nothing else, at all.

I've seen people with chronic pain (including long-term fatal cases) that are not just "despair and suffering". Including people who have dreams and follow them (creative work etc) despite the pain.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#170

Post by [deleted] »

Practicality wrote: post #145
klibertp wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. Scratch that: ~~~No, you (most probably) wouldn't.~~~ EDIT: this post is about severe chronic pain. Think cancer, or a serious toothache which lasts for years. And it's not meant to discuss the specific situation of the parent! I'm talking in general. I also agree that not 100% patients with severe ch…

I've torn the ligaments in my ankle and I've been in chronic pain every day for the last 12 years. Honestly, it doesn't bother me. (I mean, it hurts a lot and given the choice to be alive AND have it gone, I would prefer it gone, but, meh) It bothers people around me that I limp though. Oh well. I gave the example of acute pain because that was more challenging to me than the chronic.

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