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Why do so few humans kill themselves?

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Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#141

Post by DominikR »

klibertp wrote: post #127
Practicality wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to a desire to live, not everyone views suffering as the worst possible thing. If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. The loss in experience is worse than any level of pain. For the obvious counterpoint: I say that from experience not naivete. I've had a nerve in my hand accidentally sliced lengthwise (for a significant length) b…

> If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. Scratch that: ~~~No, you (most probably) wouldn't.~~~ EDIT: this post is about severe chronic pain. Think cancer, or a serious toothache which lasts for years. And it's not meant to discuss the specific situation of the parent! I'm talking in general. I also agree that not 100% patients with severe ch…

I heavily dislike such absolute statements, especially if they are unfounded.

It is merely your opinion that he wouldn't keep going with chronic pain, he has a different opinion.

There's no way for us to verify yours or his claim.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#142

Post by Practicality »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #136
ethanbond wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agreed. I woke up once with severe arthralgia throughout my entire body, went to the ER and was asked to rate my pain level. Despite being the worst pain I've ever felt (woke up in tears due to the weight of the blanket on my toes), I answered a 7/10. Acute pain – not really a big deal. Unfortunately, whatever caused the arthralgia was (and still is) a complete mystery, and by day 5 of having top pediatrician…

I think we humans for some reason have ridiculously wide pain gauge. I can only theorize that we've got super pain sensitivity along with super brain. Humans are very often disabled by pain alone, with neligible body damage. That's clearly evolutionary disadvantageous. Makes torture possible, etc. Relevant xkcd: http://xkcd.com/883/

It's so you can taste ridiculously hot peppers ;)

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#143

Post by StavrosK »

sinxoveretothex wrote: post #61
StavrosK wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike these kinds of explanations because they seem like ex post facto rationalizations. An explanation that could have gone both ways explains nothing: * Women stop having children after 40 because it's more important to raise the children you already have. * Women don't stop having children after 40 because bearing more offspring increases your chances of survival. Your explanation barely makes sense even on it…

> It's illogical to design a system that can pop out one baby every nine months To design? Are you a creationist? Assuming you're just confused, evolution doesn't "design" life. It's just a "whatever works" process. For example, angler fish have a lure that resembles prey for their prey. This has been selected by the eyes of their prey. It's not that the prey wanted their predator to fool them, it's just that angler…

No, that's how you explain things after the fact. If women could bear children until they died, we'd explain it by saying "well that's obviously because it's more advantageous to have more children". Again, something that can equally well explain why something happened and didn't happen doesn't have any explanatory power.

Put it another way, if I asked you "would you think that evolution would select for women bearing children until their 40s, or until they died?", you wouldn't be able to answer, because there's no predictive power in the explanation. Contrast this with "the sun rises every day because the earth revolves around itself", which allows you to predict whether the sun will rise or not tomorrow.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#144

Post by klibertp »

DominikR wrote: post #141
klibertp wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. Scratch that: ~~~No, you (most probably) wouldn't.~~~ EDIT: this post is about severe chronic pain. Think cancer, or a serious toothache which lasts for years. And it's not meant to discuss the specific situation of the parent! I'm talking in general. I also agree that not 100% patients with severe ch…

I heavily dislike such absolute statements, especially if they are unfounded. It is merely your opinion that he wouldn't keep going with chronic pain, he has a different opinion. There's no way for us to verify yours or his claim.

Sorry, but that patients with chronic pain are much more likely to consider suicide is an easily googlable fact. That chronic pain links with depression, which further reduces probability of "would rather keep living" is, too.

Also, the "(most probably)" part of that sentence in my previous comment is there specifically to show that I'm not making absolute statements...

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#145

Post by Practicality »

klibertp wrote: post #127
Practicality wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to a desire to live, not everyone views suffering as the worst possible thing. If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. The loss in experience is worse than any level of pain. For the obvious counterpoint: I say that from experience not naivete. I've had a nerve in my hand accidentally sliced lengthwise (for a significant length) b…

> If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. Scratch that: ~~~No, you (most probably) wouldn't.~~~ EDIT: this post is about severe chronic pain. Think cancer, or a serious toothache which lasts for years. And it's not meant to discuss the specific situation of the parent! I'm talking in general. I also agree that not 100% patients with severe ch…

I've torn the ligaments in my ankle and I've been in chronic pain every day for the last 12 years. Honestly, it doesn't bother me. (I mean, it hurts a lot and given the choice to be alive AND have it gone, I would prefer it gone, but, meh)

It bothers people around me that I limp though. Oh well.

I gave the example of acute pain because that was more challenging to me than the chronic.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#146

Post by StavrosK »

hasenj wrote: post #64
StavrosK wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike these kinds of explanations because they seem like ex post facto rationalizations. An explanation that could have gone both ways explains nothing: * Women stop having children after 40 because it's more important to raise the children you already have. * Women don't stop having children after 40 because bearing more offspring increases your chances of survival. Your explanation barely makes sense even on it…

I actually partially agree with you but for a slightly different reason. It seems like an unfalsifiable claim that rests solely on intuition and the notion that you can: "well just think about it, it all makes sense!"

That's exactly my point as well, though. It's completely unfalsifiable, and everything gets explained the same way.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#147

Post by ultramancool »

ucaetano wrote: post #112
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fine if you want to medicate yourself with lithium, but it's not acceptable to forcibly medicate everyone else. The studies you linked to show an interesting correlation between lithium in water supplies and reduced suicide levels, but you can't judge the net benefit on a single metric alone. Lithium is not without side effects, and it's unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of the population that is ot…

Iodine is added to table salt in a lot of countries in the world. Why is preventing "physical" diseases ok, but mental diseases not?

You can still buy many kinds of salt without iodine, it's easy to opt out.

Additionally, when you talk about mental "diseases", things get a lot more iffy. We have a terrible understanding of the brain, our diagnoses for those diseases are literally check lists, without any proper tests, many people would rather have their natural mental performance than a modified version of it, which is what something like this would force you into whether you like it or not.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#148

Post by Practicality »

klibertp wrote: post #144
DominikR wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heavily dislike such absolute statements, especially if they are unfounded. It is merely your opinion that he wouldn't keep going with chronic pain, he has a different opinion. There's no way for us to verify yours or his claim.

Sorry, but that patients with chronic pain are much more likely to consider suicide is an easily googlable fact. That chronic pain links with depression, which further reduces probability of "would rather keep living" is, too. Also, the "(most probably)" part of that sentence in my previous comment is there specifically to show that I'm not making absolute statements...

The fact that given a population of people more of them will consider suicide with chronic pain does not mean ALL people will. Some of us won't.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#149

Post by tunap »

ultramancool wrote: post #97
Retric wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium might be an essential micronutrient, so it may simply be treating a common problem. Much like how milk is fortified with Vitamin D. PS: There is little (ed: zero) evidence that Lithium is and the human body puts effort into removing it. But, it's also common in the environment and may have positive impacts at low levels so it's more debatable than you might think.

Perhaps, but if it's having a mental effect of notable size it still causes me concern. If you're happy with your current behaviors I don't see why you'd want it. Wouldn't it be better for individuals to just opt to take it themselves, encourage usage of those already existing environmental sources, etc?

Iodine is added to table salt for the same effect. Although I am no fan of too many additives, I do approve this practice. I wonder if it would be feasible to institute today...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodised_salt

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#150

Post by ultramancool »

tunap wrote: post #149
ultramancool wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but if it's having a mental effect of notable size it still causes me concern. If you're happy with your current behaviors I don't see why you'd want it. Wouldn't it be better for individuals to just opt to take it themselves, encourage usage of those already existing environmental sources, etc?

Iodine is added to table salt for the same effect. Although I am no fan of too many additives, I do approve this practice. I wonder if it would be feasible to institute today... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodised_salt

Iodised salt is easy to opt out of though, many salts come without it still. Your municipal tap water is much harder to opt out of. Which is why I'd suggest you simply allow people to add this themselves if they'd like.
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