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Why do so few humans kill themselves?

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Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#111

Post by mikeash »

Bartweiss wrote: post #82
mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

It seems very likely that this is a context issue or typical mind fallacy. The View From Hell is written by an anti-natalist and, if I recall, 'nonpracticing suicide'. This, I think, is someone who has a radically different baseline for "desire to live" than a lot of the people responding to it. And, on the flip side, a statement like "the drive to survive is what's fundamental" might well sound completely bizarre to…

I agree with your point at the end. The question of what keeps many suicidal people alive is quite interesting, and no doubt complex. I just feel like the introductory question of "Why do so few humans kill themselves?" is backwards: the basic strangeness of human suicide is why we do it at all. Beyond that, there is then the interesting sub-question of why some people feel a desire to do it, but refrain.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#112

Post by ucaetano »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #45
nibs wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

It's fine if you want to medicate yourself with lithium, but it's not acceptable to forcibly medicate everyone else. The studies you linked to show an interesting correlation between lithium in water supplies and reduced suicide levels, but you can't judge the net benefit on a single metric alone. Lithium is not without side effects, and it's unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of the population that is ot…

Iodine is added to table salt in a lot of countries in the world. Why is preventing "physical" diseases ok, but mental diseases not?

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#114

Post by ucaetano »

logfromblammo wrote: post #92
nibs wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

While you're at it, you might as well add magnesium, potassium, sulfate, phosphate, iodide, L-selenomethionine, copper, manganese, chromium, molybdenum, orthosilicic acid, and ascorbate, too. While you can't make people exercise and eat their vegetables, they will usually drink the tap water. But you then have to provide a way for people to opt out without any de facto penalty, which is the problem. So this would so…

Iodine is already added, to salt.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#115

Post by ucaetano »

Kenji wrote: post #78
_jgvg wrote: post #23

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from…

Ludicrous. Let people decide that for themselves. I can't believe anyone is seriously suggesting force medicating us because it seems to be correlated (note, correlation, not necessarily causation) with a drop of suicide, homicide and rape. We don't even know how lithium would cause such a thing and its exact effect on the psyche. I have been following the field of psychology and psychiatry closely and let me tell yo…

You're already medicated. Fluorine is added to water, and iodine to salt.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#116

Post by mikeash »

goatforce5 wrote: post #109
josemrb wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what's weird is the fact that we do sometimes kill ourselves when things look completely hopeless. The hope is always there, just change the purpose. Instead of a life without suffering one expects to end the pain. That is the final hope that the suicidal people embrace.

For most of us, committing suicide is unimaginable. Sometimes people find themselves in situations where the unimaginable is a better option than whatever it is they're facing. The act is equally horrific, but preferable to the alternative. > At least 200 people are believed to have fallen or jumped to their deaths [from the World Trade Centre on 9/11] while other estimates say the number is half of that or fewer. [.…

I don't think the WTC jumpers are quite the same. They were faced with certain death or near certain death, and they naturally chose the latter. Falls from a great height are survivable, very very rarely. I see this an example of the human drive to survive: when faced with death, we'll try anything that offers any sort of hope, even just a slight delay.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#117

Post by onetwotree »

A mistake and an insight.

The idea that white men have the highest suicide rate is misleading - they have the highest rate of success, which is very likely because they are the most likely to own guns, which are far and away the most effective and effortless way to commit suicide. Effortlessness is important, because depression makes planning so difficult. FWIW I'd really appreciate it if we could not turn this into a debate about gun control.

The insight, of course, is that Elliot Smith didn't have a drug problem, he was looking for a drug solution. This is an incredibly accurate description of addiction. The saying in AA is "If alcohol didn't do anything for me, I'd never have let it do anything to me". Drugs and alcohol are a solution to the underlying problem, one in which we simply can't feel ok the way others can. Of course, they are a solution with horrible side effects, and one that eventually stops working. Many members of AA describe getting sober because the drugs and alcohol weren't working anymore, only to become suicidal and realize that the drugs and alcohol were only symptoms of a much deeper problem.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#118

Post by hx87 »

_jgvg wrote: post #23

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from…

How about a compromise: make some form of lithium available OTC, without any patents involved?

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#119

Post by lawless123 »

toolz wrote: post #107
reitanqild wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess the conspiracy theorists are already onto fluoride. They are. I hope however that we can agree that they are in fact conspiracy theorists.

Why would you hope that? What do you gain by polarizing an entire group of people based on something as inconsequential as fluoride? Are you unable to brush your own teeth and would suffer great harm if they stopped profiting from companies who pay to dump their fluoride waste into our water supply? Crazy ideas only get crazier when you don't calmly address them with education and instead find some weird necessity to…

also vaccines..

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#120

Post by lawless123 »

ultramancool wrote: post #97
Retric wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium might be an essential micronutrient, so it may simply be treating a common problem. Much like how milk is fortified with Vitamin D. PS: There is little (ed: zero) evidence that Lithium is and the human body puts effort into removing it. But, it's also common in the environment and may have positive impacts at low levels so it's more debatable than you might think.

Perhaps, but if it's having a mental effect of notable size it still causes me concern. If you're happy with your current behaviors I don't see why you'd want it. Wouldn't it be better for individuals to just opt to take it themselves, encourage usage of those already existing environmental sources, etc?

one of the signs of depression is poor self maintenance, people get into a rut where they stop showering, cleaning etc.

They wont always seek help.

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