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Why do so few humans kill themselves?

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Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#91

Post by dsp1234 »

mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

very strong desire to live.

Meh, I just fear hurting the ones I love.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#92

Post by logfromblammo »

nibs wrote: post #36
_jgvg wrote: post #23

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from…

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

While you're at it, you might as well add magnesium, potassium, sulfate, phosphate, iodide, L-selenomethionine, copper, manganese, chromium, molybdenum, orthosilicic acid, and ascorbate, too.

While you can't make people exercise and eat their vegetables, they will usually drink the tap water.

But you then have to provide a way for people to opt out without any de facto penalty, which is the problem. So this would so something more suited for a dedicated drinking water system in an apartment building or complex. The mineralized water on tap goes to sinks, drinking fountains, and refrigerators, and regular old municipal water to sinks, toilets, showers, and laundry machines.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#93

Post by Retric »

ultramancool wrote: post #84
panic wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already remove chemicals from the water that change people's brain chemistry (e.g., lead). Adding something entirely helpful doesn't seem that different from removing something entirely harmful.

It does seem entirely different. In one case we're removing a toxin, something that doesn't need to be in water at all. In the other case we're adding something that isn't normally in the water in order to benefit a few people. We do this with fluoride in many places already, but I think this takes it to a far different level by affecting your brain chemistry. You're giving many people who really don't need it a mood…

Lithium might be an essential micronutrient, so it may simply be treating a common problem. Much like how milk is fortified with Vitamin D.

PS: There is little (ed: zero) evidence that Lithium is and the human body puts effort into removing it. But, it's also common in the environment and may have positive impacts at low levels so it's more debatable than you might think.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#94

Post by erikb »

mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

I agree with most of the assumptions. They are assumptions, though. We don't really know what makes us feel and act the way we do.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#95

Post by Bartweiss »

kdamken wrote: post #71
Practicality wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to a desire to live, not everyone views suffering as the worst possible thing. If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. The loss in experience is worse than any level of pain. For the obvious counterpoint: I say that from experience not naivete. I've had a nerve in my hand accidentally sliced lengthwise (for a significant length) b…

Out of curiosity - was the pain fixed when you woke back up? Because brief, intense pain like that is one thing, but experiencing pain all day, everyday is a very different beast. Even if it's a tenth of the pain that you felt, that kind of thing really wears on you, especially after years and years and no help from doctors.

This, I think, is relevant to the idea that suicide is very strongly tied to exhaustion and hopelessness.

Pain and grief, even when they are absolutely horrible, don't appear to be strongly correlated with suicide. Inescapable problems, even when they are not so severe, absolutely do.

Broadly, people seem to turn to suicide either when their circumstances seem unimprovable (chronic pain, inescapable debt, irreparable loss) or when they lose the ability to imagine recovery (acute depression, various forms of psychosis). I think that when considering suicide, experiences like "I've been in that much pain" are basically irrelevant - the operant part is the permanence, not the severity.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#96

Post by Shengbo »

sixhobbits wrote: post #81

Martin Hart: So... what's the point of getting' outta bed in the morning? Rustin Cohle: I tell myself I bear witness. But the real answer is that it's obviously my programming. And I lack the constitution for suicide. --True Detective

Time is a flat circle.

rolls up a booger between his thumb and index finger

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#97

Post by ultramancool »

Retric wrote: post #93
ultramancool wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does seem entirely different. In one case we're removing a toxin, something that doesn't need to be in water at all. In the other case we're adding something that isn't normally in the water in order to benefit a few people. We do this with fluoride in many places already, but I think this takes it to a far different level by affecting your brain chemistry. You're giving many people who really don't need it a mood…

Lithium might be an essential micronutrient, so it may simply be treating a common problem. Much like how milk is fortified with Vitamin D. PS: There is little (ed: zero) evidence that Lithium is and the human body puts effort into removing it. But, it's also common in the environment and may have positive impacts at low levels so it's more debatable than you might think.

Perhaps, but if it's having a mental effect of notable size it still causes me concern. If you're happy with your current behaviors I don't see why you'd want it. Wouldn't it be better for individuals to just opt to take it themselves, encourage usage of those already existing environmental sources, etc?

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#98

Post by Bartweiss »

Retric wrote: post #80
55555 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But what's weird is not the fact that we don't constantly kill ourselves at the first sign of trouble, what's weird is the fact that we do sometimes kill ourselves when things look completely hopeless. I think hope plays a big part. We don't kill ourselves because we have hope. If we are suffering and have no hope, that's a recipe for suicide.

Being extremely depressed actually reduces short term risks of suicide because planning shuts down. It's the middle ground where things are bad, but people can still think that has the highest risks.* *Excluding hospital assisted suicide where someone OD's on pain medication under end of life pain.

But "no hope" is not equivalent to "extremely depressed".

Think of people who commit suicide over inescapable scandals, chronic pain, or terminal illness. Extremely depressed comes with 'no hope', but that's cancelled out by 'decreased agency' (which is one theory for why antidepressants carry suicide risk). Not every form of hopelessness shares that loss of agency.

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