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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

theatlantic.com

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#131

Post by desas »

Jugurtha wrote: post #121
petercooper wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Exactly (part of) why I'm in support of the monarchy in the UK. If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, not the government (I'm from an army family and know this is taken seriously). We have attai…

> We have attained an interesting stalemate where a corrupt/crazy monarch would struggle to assert power, yet a grossly malfunctioning government can still, in theory, be replaced by one if the people were to allow it. Could you elaborate, please?

The monarch can suspend parliament. The monarch can dismiss a prime minister (not happened for > 100 years). The monarch can appoint a new one. Every law has to be signed by the monarch (it's not been refused in 300 years). The monarch is commander in chief.

Power resides where people believe it resides. The monarch can only do any of that if people believe in the monarch.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#132

Post by DanielBMarkham »

dmix wrote: post #128
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That's coup d'etat 101: capture political leaders and secure them. Only then can you move on to the next step. If this thing goes south -- and I fear it will -- the backlash will be severe. Not a good thing for the future of Turkey.

> If this thing goes south -- and I fear it will -- the backlash will be severe. Not a good thing for the future of Turkey. Especially considering he has been a tempered authoritarian before the coup. Now they will respond by expanding authority. Leaders like that always do. Hopefully that will further lead to support of the coup end goals which had some legitimacy. The only problem is that Erogdan has many hardline…

Exactly. Look for a full-scale purge of the military, which might include punishing/shooting a lot of people who had nothing to do with anything.

It could take Turkey back 110 years. Very sad.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#133

Post by dragonwriter »

selimthegrim wrote: post #80
Animats wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Erdogan called for people to take to the streets, and within an hour, the airport and bridge were filled with thousands of people waving flags. (From pictures, all male.) That's popular support. The military is not attacking the crowds. The military presence was apparently not that big, concentrating on a few key spots. A coup has to succeed within the first few hours. Control must be established before oppositio…

Uh, wasn't some wannabe tinpot dictator or other found shot with that at his side while trying to use it? Doesn't bode well for its success...

If you haven't internalized whatever working principles you are using enough that you can stop keeping the handbook at your side, you're probably not ready to carry out a coup. However well chosen those principles are for the task...

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#134

Post by allendoerfer »

pdx wrote: post #69
cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

I support Trump. I have no problem with Putin. I find your equivalence of those two men to Hitler to be naive or intentionally inflammatory. Even given this, I do not, however, intend to quit using tarsnap!

All three are terrible populists. Two have fought offensive wars. Only one is responsible for a genocide.

I am indecisive whether or not one should compare people other than Stalin and the like to Hitler. It intoxicates the whole conversation but if you focus on his roots it is a pretty good argument why populism in itself is always bad.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#136

Post by calibraxis »

ZainRiz wrote: post #114
calibraxis wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least the coup leaders and the US State Dept are sending sensible signals. John Kerry's waiting to see who wins before committing (Erdogan frustrates the US, and many assumed the US would try to overthrow him), and the coup leaders are reassuring Turkey's powerful allies. "U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry says he hopes for stability and continuity in Turkey following reports that an attempted military coup is un…

Any source for "many assumed the US would try to overthrow him"? That would imply that this coup might actually have been initiated by the US (it wouldn't be the first time the US caused a coup in another country)

Yes, take David Graeber, who's written extensively on Turkey and the extraordinary revolutionary Kurds: https://twitter.com/davidgraeber/status/700436062469038080 and https://twitter.com/davidgraeber/status/754071680977399808

(Regardless of particulars — did the US initiate it? support it? simply signal they'd stand back and let a friendly coup happen? — he has a good predictive mental model.)

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#137

Post by jonah »

Animats wrote: post #118

The crowds appear to have ejected the military from the TRT TV station, which is now back on the air. The studio is full of people.[1] So full that they can't get a clear shot of the presenter. This is history happening. Some general is being interviewed live in the middle of the crowd that's invaded the TV studio. It's all in Turkish, but a translation should be available later. [1] http://www.trt.net.tr/Anasayfa/ca…

The revolution will be televised.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaoXAwl9kw

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#139

Post by internaut »

majani wrote: post #113
tobias3 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should they have done (additionally)? E.g. take out/over all civil communication infrastructure, such as ISPs, cellular networks, phone landlines? Then enforce the curfew with actual deadly force (since they are not a police force with riot gear...)?

Here is a chart that describes the practical steps: https://embed.gyazo.com/4324b66e1a3045ad63349061a76f4756.png According to that illustration, the coup plotters missed the crucial step of breaching the president's residence and capturing him. They completely mistimed the coup when the president was on vacation outside the country. Now he has been able to rally support against the coup and his supporters are on the…

You might be speaking too soon.

The media is reporting his plane landed at an airport a few minutes ago, so if it is in the hands of the military then he will be captured.

Time like this though, don't believe anybody or anything you hear, including me.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#140

Post by mtgx »

jonah wrote: post #137
Animats wrote: post #118

The crowds appear to have ejected the military from the TRT TV station, which is now back on the air. The studio is full of people.[1] So full that they can't get a clear shot of the presenter. This is history happening. Some general is being interviewed live in the middle of the crowd that's invaded the TV studio. It's all in Turkish, but a translation should be available later. [1] http://www.trt.net.tr/Anasayfa/ca…

The revolution will be televised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaoXAwl9kw

Sure, when you have an army backing you up.

Do you think a revolution would be televised in Russia or China without the army's support?

Even in the U.S., it would probably be covered as "terrorists trying to take over the White House" or whatever.

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