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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

theatlantic.com

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#111

Post by ENGNR »

golemotron wrote: post #85
whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

> That's actually a very interesting system of government. A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles". Such a model would arguably have served Iraq better than the pure democracy that was attempted and failed. Technically, the Queen can do the same thing in England. Not an uncommon che…

And in many commonwealth countries too via the governor general. For example the Australian governor general has dissolved government and called an election when it all got too rowdy.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#113

Post by majani »

tobias3 wrote: post #81
Animats wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Erdogan called for people to take to the streets, and within an hour, the airport and bridge were filled with thousands of people waving flags. (From pictures, all male.) That's popular support. The military is not attacking the crowds. The military presence was apparently not that big, concentrating on a few key spots. A coup has to succeed within the first few hours. Control must be established before oppositio…

What should they have done (additionally)? E.g. take out/over all civil communication infrastructure, such as ISPs, cellular networks, phone landlines? Then enforce the curfew with actual deadly force (since they are not a police force with riot gear...)?

Here is a chart that describes the practical steps: https://embed.gyazo.com/4324b66e1a3045ad63349061a76f4756.png

According to that illustration, the coup plotters missed the crucial step of breaching the president's residence and capturing him. They completely mistimed the coup when the president was on vacation outside the country. Now he has been able to rally support against the coup and his supporters are on the streets protesting against the army

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#114

Post by ZainRiz »

calibraxis wrote: post #55
einrealist wrote: post #46

It is bad that a (mostly) democratic elected government is (tried to be) removed this way. This will make it really difficult to work with whoever is in power, internationally. But Erdogan forced this on the military. They were told to stand down against ISIS and to fight a new impossible-to-win fight against the kurdish minority. I really hope the situation will somehow calm down. Otherwise we could have a new civil…

At least the coup leaders and the US State Dept are sending sensible signals. John Kerry's waiting to see who wins before committing (Erdogan frustrates the US, and many assumed the US would try to overthrow him), and the coup leaders are reassuring Turkey's powerful allies. "U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry says he hopes for stability and continuity in Turkey following reports that an attempted military coup is un…

Any source for "many assumed the US would try to overthrow him"?

That would imply that this coup might actually have been initiated by the US (it wouldn't be the first time the US caused a coup in another country)

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#116

Post by oblio »

ZainRiz wrote: post #105

How do you define liberal? France's idea of "liberalism" is "follow our culture exactly or face heavy fines/punishment". They've basically turned their culture into a new religion

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments.

For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom.

How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#117

Post by DanielBMarkham »

Animats wrote: post #106
tobias3 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should they have done (additionally)? E.g. take out/over all civil communication infrastructure, such as ISPs, cellular networks, phone landlines? Then enforce the curfew with actual deadly force (since they are not a police force with riot gear...)?

Capture the Prime Minister and President. The coup leaders failed to do that.

Yes. That's coup d'etat 101: capture political leaders and secure them. Only then can you move on to the next step.

If this thing goes south -- and I fear it will -- the backlash will be severe. Not a good thing for the future of Turkey.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#118

Post by Animats »

The crowds appear to have ejected the military from the TRT TV station, which is now back on the air. The studio is full of people.[1] So full that they can't get a clear shot of the presenter.

This is history happening. Some general is being interviewed live in the middle of the crowd that's invaded the TV studio. It's all in Turkish, but a translation should be available later.

[1] http://www.trt.net.tr/Anasayfa/canli.aspx?y=tv&k=trt1

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#120

Post by ZainRiz »

oblio wrote: post #116
ZainRiz wrote: post #105

How do you define liberal? France's idea of "liberalism" is "follow our culture exactly or face heavy fines/punishment". They've basically turned their culture into a new religion

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

I would consider the US approach fairly liberal, where everyone is free to do as they want as long as they're not affecting other people with their actions.

France goes to the extreme level of saying "You can't even wear your religious clothing inside the school, even if you feel naked without it."

How would you define liberalism?

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