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UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

theguardian.com

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Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#281

Post by sievebrain »

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #277
sievebrain wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's why the EU is doomed and will be gone within a decade no matter what they do now. It is a fundamentally unattractive entity. The people who run it have never even tried to combat rising anti-EU feeling across the continent, as they believe the EU is inevitable and unstoppable, so why bother trying to make it more popular. Now it's probably too late: they've become so gripped by groupthink they can't refor…

> Yes, that's why the EU is doomed and will be gone within a decade no matter what they do now. Serious question: would that make you happy? Would you maybe prefer a replacement for the EU?

I'd prefer the EU to change, setting up such a thing is a lot of work. But it's shown it won't do that. So I'd like to see a replacement, yes.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#282

Post by programLyrique »

FrojoS wrote: post #270
programLyrique wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU research funding is also a huge incentive for collaborative research between research groups in various European countries, pooling talents from all over Europe. Research needs international collaboration, and UK funding only would make it more difficult.

In my experience, EU funding is often used to force research groups across Europe to 'collaborate'. Well at least on paper, since it's so much easier or even required to get funding if you propose 'pooling talent' and other buzz terms. Just as a sanity check: there is no reason (other than your funding agency stopping you) for researches with their own funding to collaborate across borders where and when they see fit…

Actually, for Switzerland, Swiss labs cannot apply to all EU research grants now. And I think it's a temporary agreement, which may well be scraped quite soon, if Switzerland really implements the controls on immigration. See https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-singl... EPFL did not seem and does not seem so happy about the situation.

> The only thing that has changed that the money that formerly took a detour to EU now goes directly from the Swiss government to the Swiss labs.

Switzerland labs are actually performing very well, and get more money from the EU research budget than what Switzerland gives to the EU budget (net gain of CHF 219 millions according to http://www.sbfi.admin.ch/aktuell/medien/00483/00586/index.ht... )

International collaboration is beneficial: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2015/12/05/debunking-the-m...

Yes, you can collaborate without a specific grant, but in my experience, it makes the collaboration easier.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#283

Post by jerven »

sievebrain wrote: post #118
DasIch wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the UK had the people to start trade negotiations right this second, they're not allowed to until they leave the EU and it takes years to negotiate such an agreement. It would take decades for the UK to catch up to the EU on trade agreements again, if they ever do.

The UK can negotiate deals before exit, just under EU law it can't sign them. However, why obey EU rules when you're about to leave? The only reason to do this would be to leave on good terms. But the EU sees Brexit as a betrayal that must be punished severely to try and scare other countries into not leaving. There are no "good terms" by their choice, not the UK's. So the UK should start immediately violating whatev…

The UK is not being punished by the EU. The UK punched itself a bloody nose and a few teeth out before jumping into the horse trading, shark pool that is international diplomacy.

There are lots of small favours that the UK will now need to hand out to get what it wants from EEA member states. These favours will cost. Its loosing a institute or a foundation there.

Its clear that the UK benefited a lot economically from being in the single market and regaining access under new agreements is going to be costly. That is not punishment. That is the real world, the UK ate its cake no one is going to give it a new one for free.

I really don’t mind the brexit voters, them I understand. I can’t understand how a conservative party launched itself in the most revolutionary course imaginable over internal politics. Not just reversing 40 years of slow progress in one direction but burning it all down to the ground. Over a very badly phrased referendum.

I think Cameron will go down in history as a terrible PM, a modern day Chamberlain.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#284

Post by jerven »

FrojoS wrote: post #270
programLyrique wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU research funding is also a huge incentive for collaborative research between research groups in various European countries, pooling talents from all over Europe. Research needs international collaboration, and UK funding only would make it more difficult.

In my experience, EU funding is often used to force research groups across Europe to 'collaborate'. Well at least on paper, since it's so much easier or even required to get funding if you propose 'pooling talent' and other buzz terms. Just as a sanity check: there is no reason (other than your funding agency stopping you) for researches with their own funding to collaborate across borders where and when they see fit…

Living in Switzerland, working in Science. It's been bad, but compensated for now. But soon its going to get worse. The referendum on mass migration results has not been fully implemented, so the EU has only refused to ratify one treaty (H2020).

Once the Swiss government actually implements the anti mass migration and breaks the core of the bilateral, a lot more treaties will go on both sides. This has not happened yet, and you can feel the worry on the political, economic and academic top. The quiet before the storm is almost over. Switserland, was not even part of the single market (customs for goods is still a thing here).

Switzerland also had the advantage of buying an insane amount of euro's and is tightly bound to the success of the eurozone. The UK central bank does not have such a stockpile of euro's and is much weaker in that regards.

Switzerland, is not a good example for the UK.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#285

Post by welterde »

teekert wrote: post #91
peteretep wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you specify some of the "EU regulations" that we should be getting out from under?

Well, for example all the bad stuff TTIP will bring the rest of Europe? Everybody here is pissed about TTIP. Now the Brits vote to get into a position to do something about such undemocratic bs and suddenly they are the bad guys? I see the pro-EU marketing campaign in which all the smart, rich and famous people that you should want to be like, say pro EU things, is working well. Even among the intellectual HN crowd.…

> Well, for example all the bad stuff TTIP will bring the rest of Europe? Everybody here is pissed about TTIP. Now the Brits vote to get into a position to do something about such undemocratic bs and suddenly they are the bad guys?

As far as I understand it the UK was a very strong driving force behind TTIP.. Getting us into this mess and then leaving before the consequences start to affect you, isn't very nice to say the least.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#286

Post by sctb »

throwaway-hn123 wrote: post #185
tosseraccount wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private, endowment and British funds can make up for the EU. Getting out from under EU regulations and negotiating as a free agent is a better deal for most Brits. [ edit: must have touched a nerve. +1 to -4 in an instant. ]

> [ edit: must have touched a nerve. +1 to -4 in an instant. ] Or perhaps people simply disagree with you, tosser.

Personal attacks are not OK on Hacker News, even clever ones.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#287

Post by AnonymousPlanet »

sremani wrote: post #256
vidarh wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's terribly naive to think they'll stop to ask what the EU thinks. They'll keep asking that, and if the UK gets mentioned it will be as an afterthought. > Also, the UK is still the 5th largest economy in the world by GDP ($2.8T). But relatively speaking, it's position is weakening year by year, as it's seeing anaemic growth compared to a large number of other economies. More importantly, we're seeing the ri…

The real question is, do Eurocrats know what the EU thinks ? My honest guess is, No. We know what Germany thinks, France thinks and Italy thinks. The Supra-state was an interesting exercise, an experiment of sorts that demonstrated the contradictions within Europe are too wide. EU will die its slow death, Brexit is not the cause, its the catalyst.

I am very concerned that a Europe without the possibility of acting as one entity in the coming globalized world of big players like China and India will have much to say. How will we be able to deal with developments in the Middle East and Africa while the UK cowers away on its island and every one else does whatever they please? All this, while the US places its focus towards the pacific. Is mighty Britain going to stare down the Russians by itself? And I'm not talking about just the military.

The EU sceptics may be smug now but the EU is not some selfserving idea. It's now more relevant than ever.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#288

Post by tremon »

antientropic wrote: post #227
tremon wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if sarcasm, but: - Human rights are governed by the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), which is a separate organization and treaty than the EU. It's unlikely the UK will leave the Council of Europe too. - Safety regulations on products are part of the single market treaties, just as free movement of people is. If the UK wants to remain in the EEA (e.g. through membership of the EFTA), it will still…

Actually, the incoming prime minister wants to get out of the ECHR: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leav...

And this coming from a politician that, for most of the Brexit campaign, kept on the sidelines because she was undecided about which side to choose? From a minister that introduced the Snooper's Charter, massively expanding the scope of their intelligence services? Yeah, those pesky human rights could well interfere with her method of governing.

But her statement really shows her (willful) ignorance:

"The ECHR can bind the hands of parliament, adds nothing to our prosperity, makes us less secure by preventing the deportation of dangerous foreign nationals – and does nothing to change the attitudes of governments like Russia’s when it comes to human rights"

As the home office minister, she should know damn well that the ECHR has no teeth except for EU regulation. Leave the EU, and there is no enforcement mechanism left for ECHR rulings. Not to mention the inconsistency of her own statement: how come the ECHR binds the hands of the UK government, but not Russia's? (The answer is above: it's EU regulation, not ECHR that bound her hands).

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#289

Post by hardlianotion »

wrong_variable wrote: post #53
hardlianotion wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the reaction will be simply to adopt minimal changes in the short term in ways in which Euro treaties and laws are brought wholesale onto Westminster statute books. Significant change will only occur over time and limbo is to be avoided where possible - not just for the UK, but for everyone else as well. This is the only thing that would make sense even if everything was planned and orderly, which I thin…

If I am not mistaken - individual countries are not willing to negotiate trade treaties before the UK invokes article 50. Even if by some miracle Theresa May decides to withhold invoking article 50 before creating new treaties using back channels with the 50 other trading partners of the UK, it wont be possible to enact them until the UK leaves the EU and negotiates a new trade deal with the EU.

Not precisely. The idea is that no discussions about anything will occur before Article 50 is invoked. Article 50 kicks off negotiations for the practicalities of leaving the EU. After that, and only after that, negotiations for UK's following status are supposed to take place.

Neither of these conditions are in the interest of the EU or the UK if talks are to be amicable and realistic. Amicable and realistic talks are very much in the interests of all concerned - and I guess from the EU point of view, the leadership resolution in the UK could have been a lot worse. The rules are meant to discourage les autres, but there is little appetite at the moment for other countries to flirt with leaving. Also rhetoric is beginning to calm down as well - no more calls for immediate Article 50 invocation and UKIP have faded into the background a little.

So far so not as bad as it could be.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#290

Post by dragonwriter »

neximo64 wrote: post #179
justin66 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the UK and France are permanent U.N. security council members, that sounds rather hyperbolic.

The next steps will actually be France will give up its seat and the EU will take it up. The UK was also going to give it up (alongside its WTO seat) which was what drove Cameron's 'ever closer union' clause.

> The next steps will actually be France will give up its seat and the EU will take it up.

[citation needed]

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