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Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

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161–170 of 210 posts

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#161
post #44
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more you learn about the real nature of ww2, you realize that there was no good side in that war. Just two evils fighting each other. You don't win wars without killing people, and therefore all sides are evil by definition. The little process of judging "war criminals" after the war is over is just for one's good conscience. If the Allies had lost they would have been judged as war criminals by the victors too…

Where is the American Treblinka, the British Buchenwald? WWII was against genocidal maniacs who starved entire countries and destroyed Yiddish speaking culture.

General Curtis LeMay believed he would've been tried as a war criminal for the fire bombing of Tokyo.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/peopleevents/pandeAMEX61.h...

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#162
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Was Japanese war crimes really worse than the European standards in pre modern times? Or the bombing of 250.000 civilians in Hiroshima and Nagashaki to make a point for the post-war era?

> to make a point for the post-war era? AFAIK, American WW2 leaders saw it as a choice between invading and dropping nukes. Is there evidence to suggest otherwise?

Japan is an island and needs external resources in order to survive.

When the nuclear bomb was ready Japan was already under siege and nothing could get inside or outside by air or sea. Japan was already defeated consuming resources like food or oil and not replenishing them, it was only a matter of time for unconditional surrender(Japanese had already proposed "honorable surrender").

The US documents are already declassified. Nukes were launched because:

1-They were ready, and the military wanted to test it on a real target. The war was going to end before they could test it.

2-To give a clear message to URSS, specially over Europe occupation.

For the military there was not a real difference between bombing a city and killing women and children, like was routine by the time, and doing it much faster and effective. Over 50 million people died at WWII. Nukes only killed a small fraction of it.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#163
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure! Japanese people are human and the base morality that evolution has endowed us with. This divides humanity into two groups, in group and out group. Morality only applies to the in group. It takes a lot of acculturation and education to expand an individual's conception of the in group is, from family/tribe to nation/culture to humanity. As such, any sub-culture that can take over the public sphere of a culture w…

Thats a very simplistic and in the end not really satisfactory explanation. After all not every conflict ends in genocide and Ausschwitz. And as evil as it is when women are raped by soldiers in war, normally they are not tortured to death and their genitals mutilated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

well, as sad as this is, I wouldn't expect this to be unique to Nanking, Japanese, or WWII for that matter. once small children are massacred for example, you don't get much lower no matter how hard you try, and this has been done countless times in all scales, all over the world, many times through history.

or you think genocide is some 20th century invention?

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#164
post #42

I haven't read Nitobe, but Yamamoto Tsunetomo's Hagakure mentioned in the article, which was weirdly popular a few years back, is a horrible piece of propaganda written by someone who has about as much contact with war fighters as Nietzsche.

Hagakure was written during the Edo period (1600-1868), during which time there were very few battles fought, and samurai were mainly bureaucrats and government functionaries living on fixed pensions. The book is an attempt to maintain warrior culture in the face of the reality that samurai no longer had any occasion to fight.

...collected from a mid-level bureaucrat in the early 18th century who apparently never had the opportunity to be willing to die for his lord, and which didn't become popular until the early 20th century.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#165
post #97
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further, you get more intelligence from prisoners than from bodies.

At the point that you're winning the war by a landslide, you don't care much about intelligence.

"...winning the war by a landslide..."

When, exactly, would that be?

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Japanese soldiers' "fighting to the death" nonsense was myth invented many years after WW2 by allied "historians" to justify the mass murder of japanese soldiers by the allies. It's not that the japanese weren't willing to surrender. It was that the allies ( unfortunately out…

My impression is a lot of soldiers and contemporaneous sources said Japanese fought to the death, engaged in suicidal 'banzai charges', killed themselves rather than surrender, and that those few who did surrender thought it was shameful, and had been taught to expect mistreatment from Americans similar to what Japan dished out on e.g. the Bataan Death March. Now it's quite possible that some of that was exaggerated…

> My impression is a lot of soldiers and contemporaneous sources said Japanese fought to the death, engaged in suicidal 'banzai charges', killed themselves rather than surrender, and that those few who did surrender thought it was shameful

That is the propaganda/"history" that I am talking about. If you look at previous battles/wars, the japanese soldiers did surrender. The japanese soldiers did surrender in the beginning of the pacific war to the allies and they were brutally slaughtered, tortured and mutilated. It was part of the racist "no prisoner" policy by the extremely racist allied soldiers. That's why the japanese stopped surrendering.

The myth of the "unsurrendering" japanese was created after ww2 by "historians" to justify the absolutely absurd casualty rates that the japanese endured. Many of these battles in the pacific had deaths rates of 100%. That's unheard of in wars, unless one side was completely genocidal. Meaning there were 0 wounded 0 japanese POWs. What this means is that the allied soldiers simply massacred the japanese soldiers and went around killing wounded japanese soldiers. We know this happened because we have video footage of allied soldiers killing wounded japanese soldiers.

> and had been taught to expect mistreatment from Americans similar to what Japan dished out on e.g. the Bataan Death March.

The Bataan March was "myth". Hundreds of thousands of japanese POWs were tortured and mutilated and massacred by american soldiers. Maybe 100 americans soldiers were killed in the bataan march. Maybe. The propagandist myth of the bataan march certainly influenced the savage behavior of allied soldiers, but the allied soldiers in the pacific were from some of the most savage and racist societies on earth. We pretend that nazi germany and imperial japan were "racist", but we were just as racist as they were and much of axis racial ideology was copied from US/British racial ideology.

> But if your opponent is willing to surrender, it's generally a better tactic to let them surrender, than to have a no-prisoners policy that means their only hope for survival is to defeat you.

Right. Unfortunately, racist hatred wouldn't allow the allied soldiers to let the japanese surrender. That's why the japanese soldiers fought so hard. That's why the kamikazes only came into existence against the allied soldiers. The japanese never exhibited that behavior against the russians, chinese, etc.

> Not saying there was no racism, no brutality, no war crimes from the American side, but would need to see more evidence that the relative lack of prisoners was 100% due to American war criminality vs. how Japanese fought.

"American soldiers in the Pacific often deliberately killed Japanese soldiers who had surrendered."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World...

"But the Japanese wasn't dead. He had been wounded severely in the back and couldn't move his arms; otherwise he would have resisted to his last breath... "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanes...

"In 1984, Japanese soldiers' remains were repatriated from the Mariana Islands. Roughly 60 percent were missing their skulls."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_and_Palau_Islands_camp...

If you do the math, pretty much all of the japanese on these islands were killed ( 70K+ ) and tens of thousands of these soldiers were tortured, decapitated and had their heads boiled for war trophies.

In ww2, you can objectively say that pure evil won and that pure evil lost. We love to pretend that the nazis were evil or the japanese were evil, but the most evil societies on earth was britain and the US and had been the most evil for nearly 150 years before ww2. We love to ignore the historical fact that Nazi Germany modeled their ideology after the racist ideology pioneered by britain and the US.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#168
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression is a lot of soldiers and contemporaneous sources said Japanese fought to the death, engaged in suicidal 'banzai charges', killed themselves rather than surrender, and that those few who did surrender thought it was shameful, and had been taught to expect mistreatment from Americans similar to what Japan dished out on e.g. the Bataan Death March. Now it's quite possible that some of that was exaggerated…

Further, you get more intelligence from prisoners than from bodies.

Sure, but you are talking about racist hatred trumping rationality and civility. There weren't a more racist and savage group in ww2 than the allied soldier in the pacific. Hundreds of thousands of japanese soldiers were tortured, mutilated/decapitated and turned into war trophies. It's a good thing we won ww2, otherwise, so many people would have been executed for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#169
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Japanese soldiers' "fighting to the death" nonsense was myth invented many years after WW2 by allied "historians" to justify the mass murder of japanese soldiers by the allies. It's not that the japanese weren't willing to surrender. It was that the allies ( unfortunately out…

Respectfully, that's a bullshit point of view. For the japanese military in WWII, rape was normal. Butchering civilian populations wholesale was normal. The Americans and British did not play by those rules, even though we did a lot of killing. This was not two equivalent evils. http://foxtalk.tistory.com/98

> For the japanese military in WWII, rape was normal.

What racist gibberish. It was "normal" just like it was normal for the allies. The allies did a lot more raping than the axis...

> Butchering civilian populations wholesale was normal.

And it was not normal for the allies? The allies murdered a lot more civilians than the axis.

> The Americans and British did not play by those rules

Is that a joke? Intentionally burning of millions of innocent women and children are what? The nuking of cities full of innocent civilians are what? We intentionally murdered a shitload of innocent civilians too. Lets not pretend otherwise.

> This was not two equivalent evils.

You could argue that the british/americans were more evil than the japanese/germans. I prefer to say evil is evil.

The fact that you think we were any better just shows that you are an unthinking person who mindlessly swallows propaganda. Or that you don't know what really went on in ww2.

The british were some of the worst genocidal maniacs in humans history ( aborigines, indians, africans, etc ). And we did our fair share of genocides ( native americans, inuits, etc ). We didn't go from mass lynching of blacks to turning into saints overnight. The US and Britain were two of the most racist and evil societies on earth in the 1940s. There is a reason why the nazis modeled their ideology after the british/american racial ideology.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#170
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't refute the claim that the allies had a "take no prisoners" policy, killing wounded or surrendering enemy. It's plausible that that got reworked into the more palatable "they all died by choice" meme. Does anyone have sources, either way? Also, regarding "butchering civilian populations wholesale" see [1], [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_a... [2] https://en.wikipedia.or…

I think you will find a few comments in this Quora thread can explain the "take no prisoners" policy. Basically the Japanese were using perfidy as a normal war tactic (perfidy is a war crime, surrender and then, when your enemy's guard is lower, attack). To me there's not greatest lack of honour than committing perfidy in war. [1] https://www.quora.com/Is-false-surrendering-a-war-crime

> Basically the Japanese were using perfidy as a normal war tactic (perfidy is a war crime, surrender and then, when your enemy's guard is lower, attack).

The japanese started suicide runs because the allies had a no prisoner policy.

"American soldiers in the Pacific often deliberately killed Japanese soldiers who had surrendered."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World...

Not only that the allies were tortured, mutilating and decapitating hundreds of thousands of wounded/surrendered japanese soldiers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanes...

That's why the japanese didn't surrender. What the allies were doing in the pacific war is something that even ISIS would view as deranged.

If false surrendering is a war crime, then so is torture, mutilation and "no prisoner" policy.

Why did the japanese soldiers stop surrendering? You have to look at the context. Would you surrender to someone who is going to torture you, mutilate you and decapitate you and boil your head so that your skull could be sent to the US as a war trophy? Of course not.

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