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Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

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Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#41
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it might be a more authoritative place to start, it's not the only academic paper in the sources, and it's definitely not the entire argument undergirding this post. I for one appreciate when he pulls out a citation that make you raise an eyebrow.

Hey! You're right, i'd missed https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/2921 I guess i'm super conservative about sourcing when reading arguments made about historical topics (and academic papers at least tend to make it clear whether or not their sourcing is primary, secondary, or what). Especially when it comes to claims of what the common perception was at any particular point in human history i am always curious to see n…

You're still missing one... https://www.erudit.org/revue/ttr/2010/v23/n2/1009160ar.html (While not 100% about the original version of Nitobe's book, they still analyze it and provide a bunch more references concerning it).

Yeah, there's a good chance The Last Samurai might currently be the most popular lens through which people view bushido right now (Americans at least). I share your sadness but I'm sure most people actually have multiple points of reference on the concept. Would be funny if it continued to evolve into something completely different (something featuring Tom Cruise?)

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#42
I haven't read Nitobe, but Yamamoto Tsunetomo's Hagakure mentioned in the article, which was weirdly popular a few years back, is a horrible piece of propaganda written by someone who has about as much contact with war fighters as Nietzsche.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#43
post #2

If the concept of Bushido didn't become popular until Japan's modernization (at the end of the 19th century)...how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Looking at the Wikipedia entry for Kamikaze [1], I was surprised to read that the concept of suicide attacks only became formalized late in the war (June 1944), rather…

> how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Japanese soldiers' "fighting to the death" nonsense was myth invented many years after WW2 by allied "historians" to justify the mass murder of japanese soldiers by the allies. It's not that the japanese weren't willing to surrender. It was that the allies ( unfortunately out…

If you want a good look at the other side, read the Showa series of manga by Shigeru Mizuki. It mixes historical background (based on photos) with his own personal story (a more cartoony style).

And his own story is Hellish by any standard. In the third volume particularly, his group gets caught by enemy fire and are presumed dead. When he makes it back to camp, they has already reported them as dead. This turns out to be an embarrassment and they are effectively told to go back into the jungle and die. Some do.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#44
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Japanese soldiers' "fighting to the death" nonsense was myth invented many years after WW2 by allied "historians" to justify the mass murder of japanese soldiers by the allies. It's not that the japanese weren't willing to surrender. It was that the allies ( unfortunately out…

> The more you learn about the real nature of ww2, you realize that there was no good side in that war. Just two evils fighting each other. You don't win wars without killing people, and therefore all sides are evil by definition. The little process of judging "war criminals" after the war is over is just for one's good conscience. If the Allies had lost they would have been judged as war criminals by the victors too…

Where is the American Treblinka, the British Buchenwald? WWII was against genocidal maniacs who starved entire countries and destroyed Yiddish speaking culture.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#45
Fun (though unverifiable) fact: No one reads Inazo Nitobe, or that "Hagakure" thing in today's Japan. It looks like these are mostly for Westerner's consumption. "Bushido" today is often taken as some weird/quaint moral code that is often depicted comically. It could be interesting for a historical viewpoint, but I don't think these historic texts are very useful to explain the modern-day Japan. It's a bit like reading Jefferson while trying to understand Trump.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#46
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Japanese soldiers' "fighting to the death" nonsense was myth invented many years after WW2 by allied "historians" to justify the mass murder of japanese soldiers by the allies. It's not that the japanese weren't willing to surrender. It was that the allies ( unfortunately out…

Respectfully, that's a bullshit point of view. For the japanese military in WWII, rape was normal. Butchering civilian populations wholesale was normal. The Americans and British did not play by those rules, even though we did a lot of killing. This was not two equivalent evils. http://foxtalk.tistory.com/98

Perhaps not complete bullsh!t.

Both my parents were in their early teens in Malaysia during the Japanese invasion and subsequent occupation. The both lived near (different) POW camps, and yes, they both agreed that the treatment of the British & Aussie POWs in those camps by the Japanese guards was brutal.

But they both say that when the roles were reversed and the Allies took back Malaysia, the treatment by Allied soldiers of the Japanese prisoners was equally as horrific. Call it 'revenge mentality' or anything else, but the truth is that it happened and they saw it happen with their own eyes. It is just not documented in the history books we read today.

My father had his bicycle commandeered by a Japanese soldier when the Imperial forces walked into Kuala Lumpur unopposed. The soldier politely asked to 'borrow' it and my dad's family knew better than to refuse. At the end of the war however, the same soldier knew defeat was coming so he actually sought out my father's family and returned the bike. It was a lot worse for wear, but he got it back.

Another Japanese officer gave my grandfather one of his ceremonial swords as a gift because he was going to go down to the river to commit seppuku rather than be captured by allied forces. Bushido or not, that sort of cultural belief was the norm back then.

My mother still speaks fondly of British POWs who she said were just young boys that she felt sorry for. She and her mother used to go down to the camp to collect the clothing of the POWs and the guards so they could mend them. Some of the English soldiers taught her to make toy bunny rabbits out of socks and she still remembers how to make them to this day.

She speaks of the sorrow of going down to the camp one day to return some uniforms only to find the place deserted. A remaining guard told her that the Allied POWs had been shipped off to Burma to build a railway. She cries even now when telling the story.

My mother actually still has some of the 'banana money' that was used by the Japanese in Malaysia during the occupation. Both my parents said that any actual fighting done by the Japanese forces was precise and directed against military installations in order to minimise civilian casualties.

My father's best friend lived among the labour camps on the ground of the KL railway station. When the initial Japanese air attack on the railway yards came, they bombed a few cars/buildings and shot out the clock tower (after dropping leaflets explaining that they would demonstrate their superiority by shooting out all the clock towers in KL). There were hardly any civilian casualties.

Conversely when the allied forces later counter attacked KL, they carpet bombed the railway yards, killing almost all the civilian labourers living there (including my dad's friend).

Perhaps it is because I heard all these first hand witness accounts while growing up that I always listen to any official war reports with a grain of salt. War is hell, and makes monsters of ALL the participants.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Japanese soldiers' "fighting to the death" nonsense was myth invented many years after WW2 by allied "historians" to justify the mass murder of japanese soldiers by the allies. It's not that the japanese weren't willing to surrender. It was that the allies ( unfortunately out…

Really no good side in most wars. Winning wars requires evil in one form or another.

No, but while all sides in war end up committing war crimes of one form or another, you definitely have systems in which this is a feature, not a bug. Large-scale massacres of civilians have been a regular staple of the Japanese armed forces during WWII (particularly the Army). And the pattern of abusing civilians of the so-called "co-prosperity sphere" and terrible treatment of POWs was not a case of isolated incidents.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#48
post #44
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more you learn about the real nature of ww2, you realize that there was no good side in that war. Just two evils fighting each other. You don't win wars without killing people, and therefore all sides are evil by definition. The little process of judging "war criminals" after the war is over is just for one's good conscience. If the Allies had lost they would have been judged as war criminals by the victors too…

Where is the American Treblinka, the British Buchenwald? WWII was against genocidal maniacs who starved entire countries and destroyed Yiddish speaking culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#49
post #44
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more you learn about the real nature of ww2, you realize that there was no good side in that war. Just two evils fighting each other. You don't win wars without killing people, and therefore all sides are evil by definition. The little process of judging "war criminals" after the war is over is just for one's good conscience. If the Allies had lost they would have been judged as war criminals by the victors too…

Where is the American Treblinka, the British Buchenwald? WWII was against genocidal maniacs who starved entire countries and destroyed Yiddish speaking culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World...

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#50

So, the only academic paper in the sources in the post is a PhD thesis which appears to be the entire argument undergirding this post. If you're interested in the subject, that might be a good place to start: https://open.library.ubc.ca/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/24/...

I studied Japanese history in a grad program for a while, and every professor I met agreed that bushido is a modern construct. There are plenty of academic articles about it, but you probably won't find many of them without access to JSTOR.
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