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Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

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Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#31

Post by shiro »

cyberferret wrote: post #12

Interesting that the author mentions that the term "Bushido" wasn't really a thing until last century. I was sure I saw the term mentioned in the writing of Miyamoto Musashi, but I assume that might have been a modern translators interpretation. (I read the English version, not the native Japanese one). Also, some of my favourite graphic novels by Stan Sakai, Kazuo Koike and Goseki Kojima seem to mention the term too…

The term "bushido" itself can be seen from late 16c literature (甲陽軍鑑, written between 1575 and 1586, is said as the first written appearance of the word), but initially it meant more practical skills of combat or survival. I don't have Miyamoto Musashi's book at hand but I suspect if he used the term it had the similar meaning.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#32

Post by velodrome »

hoodoof wrote: post #4

Related but at a tangent - after a lifetime of interest in karate I came to realise that most of the stuff taught at karate is not practical. Katas and karate punches and kicks - most of this better thought of more as dancing or ceremonial. A bit like Tai Chi - except that Tai Chi claims no real world martial value. The myth remains however of karate being great self defence training. Our local karate club is packed…

I think Judo and Aikido are more practical. They focus more on grappling and emphasize the redirection of the opponent's force.

Most people are better off learning combat systems aimed towards personal defense:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#33

Post by hoodoof »

velodrome wrote: post #32
hoodoof wrote: post #4

Related but at a tangent - after a lifetime of interest in karate I came to realise that most of the stuff taught at karate is not practical. Katas and karate punches and kicks - most of this better thought of more as dancing or ceremonial. A bit like Tai Chi - except that Tai Chi claims no real world martial value. The myth remains however of karate being great self defence training. Our local karate club is packed…

I think Judo and Aikido are more practical. They focus more on grappling and emphasize the redirection of the opponent's force. Most people are better off learning combat systems aimed towards personal defense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

Krav Maga - much more practical than karate.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#34

Post by germinalphrase »

Kostchei wrote: post #25
hoodoof wrote: post #4

Related but at a tangent - after a lifetime of interest in karate I came to realise that most of the stuff taught at karate is not practical. Katas and karate punches and kicks - most of this better thought of more as dancing or ceremonial. A bit like Tai Chi - except that Tai Chi claims no real world martial value. The myth remains however of karate being great self defence training. Our local karate club is packed…

I've done some form of boxing, grappling /judo or martial art for 30 years. I taught physical skills- use of force, to law enforcement for 6 years. For 5 years I worked in a violent custodial environment. Some young people entering that work-place had never faced an angry man, never been in a real fight. For them that "martial arts" environment is a reasonably safe and accessible place to start. I agree that it is no…

What you would recommend as a more practical form of self defense training for those not working in a high-risk environment?

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#35

Post by hoodoof »

germinalphrase wrote: post #34
Kostchei wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done some form of boxing, grappling /judo or martial art for 30 years. I taught physical skills- use of force, to law enforcement for 6 years. For 5 years I worked in a violent custodial environment. Some young people entering that work-place had never faced an angry man, never been in a real fight. For them that "martial arts" environment is a reasonably safe and accessible place to start. I agree that it is no…

What you would recommend as a more practical form of self defense training for those not working in a high-risk environment?

Boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, Krav Maga, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, MMA, Judo.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#36

Post by RockyMcNuts »

iwontreddit wrote: post #17
danso wrote: post #2

If the concept of Bushido didn't become popular until Japan's modernization (at the end of the 19th century)...how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Looking at the Wikipedia entry for Kamikaze [1], I was surprised to read that the concept of suicide attacks only became formalized late in the war (June 1944), rather…

> how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Japanese soldiers' "fighting to the death" nonsense was myth invented many years after WW2 by allied "historians" to justify the mass murder of japanese soldiers by the allies. It's not that the japanese weren't willing to surrender. It was that the allies ( unfortunately out…

My impression is a lot of soldiers and contemporaneous sources said Japanese fought to the death, engaged in suicidal 'banzai charges', killed themselves rather than surrender, and that those few who did surrender thought it was shameful, and had been taught to expect mistreatment from Americans similar to what Japan dished out on e.g. the Bataan Death March.

Now it's quite possible that some of that was exaggerated and history as written by the victors. (authors like Leckie, Sledge, Jones ... have their books but didn't get too far)

But if your opponent is willing to surrender, it's generally a better tactic to let them surrender, than to have a no-prisoners policy that means their only hope for survival is to defeat you.

Not saying there was no racism, no brutality, no war crimes from the American side, but would need to see more evidence that the relative lack of prisoners was 100% due to American war criminality vs. how Japanese fought.

https://www.quora.com/Are-educated-Americans-no-longer-taugh...

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#37

Post by knowtheory »

pierrec wrote: post #19
knowtheory wrote: post #10

So, the only academic paper in the sources in the post is a PhD thesis which appears to be the entire argument undergirding this post. If you're interested in the subject, that might be a good place to start: https://open.library.ubc.ca/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/24/...

While it might be a more authoritative place to start, it's not the only academic paper in the sources, and it's definitely not the entire argument undergirding this post. I for one appreciate when he pulls out a citation that make you raise an eyebrow.

Hey! You're right, i'd missed https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/2921

I guess i'm super conservative about sourcing when reading arguments made about historical topics (and academic papers at least tend to make it clear whether or not their sourcing is primary, secondary, or what).

Especially when it comes to claims of what the common perception was at any particular point in human history i am always curious to see not what someone's narrative is, but what they're building their case upon.

(also as an aside the use of The Last Samurai as a lens or touchstone for discussing bushido was a bit weird to me given how prevalent the notion of bushido is. But maybe i'm just sad that that's the go-to reference.)

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#38

Post by kstenerud »

germinalphrase wrote: post #34
Kostchei wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done some form of boxing, grappling /judo or martial art for 30 years. I taught physical skills- use of force, to law enforcement for 6 years. For 5 years I worked in a violent custodial environment. Some young people entering that work-place had never faced an angry man, never been in a real fight. For them that "martial arts" environment is a reasonably safe and accessible place to start. I agree that it is no…

What you would recommend as a more practical form of self defense training for those not working in a high-risk environment?

Boxing for as long as you can remain standing, wrestling after that.

Basically, if you're not actually fighting, you don't know how to fight. It would be like learning how to program, except you've never actually written a program before.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#39

Post by mcguire »

RockyMcNuts wrote: post #36
iwontreddit wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Japanese soldiers' "fighting to the death" nonsense was myth invented many years after WW2 by allied "historians" to justify the mass murder of japanese soldiers by the allies. It's not that the japanese weren't willing to surrender. It was that the allies ( unfortunately out…

My impression is a lot of soldiers and contemporaneous sources said Japanese fought to the death, engaged in suicidal 'banzai charges', killed themselves rather than surrender, and that those few who did surrender thought it was shameful, and had been taught to expect mistreatment from Americans similar to what Japan dished out on e.g. the Bataan Death March. Now it's quite possible that some of that was exaggerated…

Further, you get more intelligence from prisoners than from bodies.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#40

Post by mercurial »

velodrome wrote: post #32
hoodoof wrote: post #4

Related but at a tangent - after a lifetime of interest in karate I came to realise that most of the stuff taught at karate is not practical. Katas and karate punches and kicks - most of this better thought of more as dancing or ceremonial. A bit like Tai Chi - except that Tai Chi claims no real world martial value. The myth remains however of karate being great self defence training. Our local karate club is packed…

I think Judo and Aikido are more practical. They focus more on grappling and emphasize the redirection of the opponent's force. Most people are better off learning combat systems aimed towards personal defense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

Aikido doesn't have a reputation as "something you'd use on the street". Krav Maga may be good if you get a real teacher and not some guy who's seen videos on youtube.
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