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Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

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Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#201

Post by ZenoArrow »

programLyrique wrote: post #192
ZenoArrow wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regaining control was always about more than economic control. If you're in the EU, I hope you realise that you're currently being ruled by people you didn't elect, people in the pocket of big business, who have set out to concentrate power in the hands of a small selected group. I've heard some EU apologists claim that they don't believe in democracy, but some of us still do.

I have the impression that I elected the MPEs, and that I have chosen my ministers and my head of state, and as such, the councils of ministers and heads of state that are the real rulers of Europe, yes, the nations! As the European commission, it's a civil service as there is in all the European countries.

> "As the European commission, it's a civil service as there is in all the European countries."

That's a common misconception. Why? In other countries, the civil service aren't the only ones that can propose legislation.

In the EU, the European Parliament can't propose legislation, the European Council can't propose legislation, only the European Commission can propose legislation. You may be electing people to represent you, but how are they meant to represent you when they have no input into what is being discussed? All they can do is say yes or no to what the Commission proposes, it's the Commission that controls the agenda.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#202

Post by riffraff »

zeveb wrote: post #76
ubernostrum wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help wondering if there's an effect here like the one that produces anti-vaccination attitudes. We're running out of people who have direct experience of a world before routine vaccination for childhood illnesses, and so the downside of taking the anti-vaccine stance simply isn't apparent to people until their own children die of preventable illness, at which point it's too late to help. Similarly, I wonder i…

> when the UK joined the European common market The problem is that the EU should have remained the Common Market, instead of growing into a largely unaccountable, largely undemocratic, largely technocratic, ungainly nightmare. I think that a United States of Europe is inevitable, and even a good idea, but it should have been done slowly, gradually and with respect for the differing peoples of Britain and the Contine…

> Instead, what took about 150 year for America was rammed through in about 30.

you do realise the treaty of rome was signed 60 years ago right? The current EU has a ton of problems, but it's the continuation of a process that goes on since the end of WW2.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#203

Post by twblalock »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #201
programLyrique wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the impression that I elected the MPEs, and that I have chosen my ministers and my head of state, and as such, the councils of ministers and heads of state that are the real rulers of Europe, yes, the nations! As the European commission, it's a civil service as there is in all the European countries.

> "As the European commission, it's a civil service as there is in all the European countries." That's a common misconception. Why? In other countries, the civil service aren't the only ones that can propose legislation. In the EU, the European Parliament can't propose legislation, the European Council can't propose legislation, only the European Commission can propose legislation. You may be electing people to repre…

If the European Parliament were able to propose legislation, you would have a lot more of the kinds of laws and regulations you don't like about the EU.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#204

Post by guard-of-terra »

thebokehwokeh2 wrote: post #191
guard-of-terra wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't a person be opposed to mass immigration even if it won't bring economic benefits? I'm not in UK frankly, but I'm definitely ready to sacrifice part of my income if that would curb mass immigration. Unfortunately, nobody ever proposed so.

Ok. I'll bite on this one. Why are you opposed to mass immigration?

Now to the specific. The country in question is Russia and mass immigrants mostly come from Ukraine, Caucasus and Central Asia.

People from Ukraine, and fellow Russians coming home, I have no reservations against. They're as good cultural fit as anybody already in the country. I'll make the process smoother if I could.

People from Caucasus, they're often poor cultural fit. They're first to bend laws, they're sometimes violent, they form diasporas faciliating ethnic crime and corruption. Will definitely have at least visa regime introduced with their countries, to only let people in either as tourists or on definite work/enterpreneur visas.

People from Central Asia. Those are poor countries, and less than 25 years ago they participated in ethnic cleansings against any non-title nations in their own newly-born nationalistic republics. Drove millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Germans, Tatars, Koreans etc as refugees out. Why should we turn blind eye on this? Never forget I'd say. But instead policy makers can't even implement visa regime with those countries. Many of them are also islamic, poor cultural fit, not speaking Russian, praising "traditional values". Who would like neighbours like that? What do they have to offset that?

They also avoid paying taxes, and business employing them also avoids paying taxes by never reporting people they employ. They siphon tens of billions dollars from our economy to their countries. What's there to love?

Have to repeat again that I have no obligations whatsoever to let them in. "Default Deny" sounds just right. After all, that's exactly what I'm getting WRT entering US or EU or UK.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#205

Post by twblalock »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #194
twblalock wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope you realise that you're currently being ruled by people you didn't elect Everyone in the EU is ruled by their own elected government. The unelected bureaucrats in Brussels don't rule anybody. Their ability to make decisions for member states is limited by treaties. In any case, the UK was significantly more independent than other EU states in terms of currency and economic issues. > people in the pocket of b…

> "Everyone in the EU is ruled by their own elected government. The unelected bureaucrats in Brussels don't rule anybody. Their ability to make decisions for member states is limited by treaties. In any case, the UK was significantly more independent than other EU states in terms of currency and economic issues." The agenda of the EU is controlled by the EU Commission, as they're the only group that can propose laws.…

The Lisbon treaty was approved by the democratically elected governments of the EU member states, who represent their people. What's wrong with that? How can you possibly construe it as a non-democratic imposition by the commission?

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#206

Post by hsitz »

rayiner wrote: post #167
hsitz wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is not some sort of sovereign. It's an organization staffed by bureaucrats (i.e., unelected officials) for the purpose of furthering the agreed upon goals of the member sovereign states. Comparison with U.S. is ridiculous.

There is an EU Parliament, and it can make binding law. So it's pretty disingenuous to make it seem like the UN or WTO.

Thanks for that. I would suggest anyone who thinks an analogy of EU to U.S is appropriate review what the EU actually is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#207

Post by davorb »

rayiner wrote: post #167
hsitz wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is not some sort of sovereign. It's an organization staffed by bureaucrats (i.e., unelected officials) for the purpose of furthering the agreed upon goals of the member sovereign states. Comparison with U.S. is ridiculous.

There is an EU Parliament, and it can make binding law. So it's pretty disingenuous to make it seem like the UN or WTO.

The European Parliment doesn't have the power to propose new laws.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#208

Post by DanBC »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #194
twblalock wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope you realise that you're currently being ruled by people you didn't elect Everyone in the EU is ruled by their own elected government. The unelected bureaucrats in Brussels don't rule anybody. Their ability to make decisions for member states is limited by treaties. In any case, the UK was significantly more independent than other EU states in terms of currency and economic issues. > people in the pocket of b…

> "Everyone in the EU is ruled by their own elected government. The unelected bureaucrats in Brussels don't rule anybody. Their ability to make decisions for member states is limited by treaties. In any case, the UK was significantly more independent than other EU states in terms of currency and economic issues." The agenda of the EU is controlled by the EU Commission, as they're the only group that can propose laws.…

> > "Ah, conspiracy theories."

> Ah, casual dismissal. If you want to see if there's any substance behind what I say, watch this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xMuUEd6w54E

When someone thinks you're pushing conspiracy theories you probably need to point them to a better source of information than this: https://tbunews.com/about-tbu-news/

One example of "science": https://tbunews.com/resonance-beings-of-frequency/

Or this, about vaccines: https://tbunews.com/vaccines-cure-or-spread-disease/

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#209

Post by sangnoir »

jazzyk wrote: post #190
vonnik wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independence is a mirage, as is control. No individual nor country in the world is independent. We are all interdependent on one another, and ever more so as the movement of data, goods and people accelerates. The EU is a framework is facilitate that interdependence, and while it has many faults, it was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. Great Britain's future is very dependent on the…

>The EU will make the UK pay a price for Brexit. Last time I checked membership in the EU is voluntary. Why should there be punishment?

If you are a subscription-paying member of a country club and you renounce your membership, do you expect to use their facilities for free thereafter? No. You will pay a fair price - if they choose to allow you onto the property in the first place.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#210

Post by florianbailey »

danudey wrote: post #175
volatilitish wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. We will now be free to negotiate trade deals with countries outside the EU (Which we currently are not able to do. The EU has been absolutely awful at trying to negotiate trade deals with other countries). We will negotiate a trade deal with the EU as a whole. Everyone in the UK knows those facts.

But on the other hand, as a Canadian whose government was in the process of negotiating a trade agreement with the EU, now we'll have to draw up two separate trade agreements, neither of which is as unbalanced in their favour as the original would have been. That is to say, the EU without the UK has less leverage than before, and the UK without the EU has less leverage than before, so now neither the EU nor the UK ha…

But the EU is still the largest or second largest market in the world (depending on the source).
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