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Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

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Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#71

Post by masklinn »

djschnei wrote: post #66
masklinn wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, free trade did that. No, free trade did not do that, the seeds of the EU were sown at the Hague Congress for the express purpose of European integration as an antidote to nationalistic extremes. The Economic integration started being added with the Treaty of Rome.

Yes, because prior to the Hague Congress the countries that now inhabit the EU were shining examples of free trade. With the exception of Ludwig Erhard in Germany (which despite losing the war, had the strongest economic recovery), protectionism and regressive economic policy crippled the region. The EU initially healed some of those wounds, but what it was going to become was inevitable and predictable.

> The EU initially healed some of those wounds, but what it was going to become was inevitable and predictable.

Of course free trade was an inevitable consequence of european integration, I never claimed otherwise.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#72

Post by mattmanser »

Animats wrote: post #48

This may mean the breakup of the United Kingdom, too. Scotland and Northern Ireland mostly want to stay in Europe, and may choose to leave the UK, leaving Britain and Wales as the UK.[1] As a practical matter, it will become harder to do business into the EU from Britain. Visiting the EU from Britain may require a visa, and visiting Britain from the EU almost certainly will. This is really about Keeping Britain White…

Half the people in the UK aren't racists and it doesn't make you look good claiming they are. It was actually part of the problem and why leave won, no-one listened to their legitimate concerns and just kept sidelining a large chunk of the electorate by calling them racists.

For most people it's not about racism and it's certainly not about colour (the most recent mass-migration from the EU are white anyway!).

Citing an article which claims all leave voters are racist because of one comment one woman heard in the pub doesn't prove your case.

EDIT: I've actually seen full on racism in Poland in Krakov, a chunk of the population were really proper, full on, out in the open, racists. Spat at our friend, started following us in the street, threatened in nightclubs. Again and again and again. Skinheads on every street.

Proper racism is scary and disgusting and horrifying and frightening.

The UK has nothing like the racism I've seen in other countries, we're very open, far more open than most of the EU.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#73

Post by mioelnir »

robk wrote: post #34
Scirra_Tom wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're pro-small business, then you should be excited about the opportunities we have now. Such as? Please elaborate. One thing we can look forwards to is paying VAT to every EU country individually. That's going to be fun.

How's that? An American company doesn't charge VAT unless they have a EU subsidiary. UK would be closer to that treatment

Why would the EU give such a favorable deal to a country as unimportant as UK? The EU-member UK leaving is an important signal; but non-EU-member Uk is an irrelevant tiny market.

The Brexit camps idea that they could leave so they could finally pick whatever they like, as they have been trying to do for the last 40 years, is cute but laughably naive. They will not continue to receive the free travel, trade access and EU subsidies to the tune of 200 million euro per week. All of that will be revoked, only if to set an example that you will not get those benefits without buy-in.

In my view, there are currently two equally likely scenarios to unfold: they leave with nothing as farewell gift (as has already been hinted at by the EU), or they will ignore the vote and stay in because they realize how bad of an idea this was - but are now in such a bad position they will likely lose all special privileges they enjoyed over the last 40 years.

This can be clearly seen by how many leave-voters are now in shock that they leave, and want to be able to vote again to remain. This was a powerplay for a better negotiation position. It backfired and now they can eat it.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#75

Post by IkmoIkmo »

dr_ick wrote: post #17
illumin8 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the full on collapse of the UK banking system, and the mass exodus of financial jobs isn't going to instantly dry up any startup funding in the UK, you're kidding yourself. Large companies in the UK are already announcing their intention to move thousands of jobs to Germany or Ireland.

> full on collapse of the UK banking system Hyperbole much? Stop with the fear mongering. Also, which "large companies" have announced they are moving? Source?

London was the de facto capital (as in, economic powerhouse) of the EU, where you'd create your EU headquarters for its connection to the EU, its most talented individuals, its market, and to some extent its political connections.

This will no longer be true. No longer will you have automatic access to the rest of the market, no longer can talent so easily flow, no longer does the UK hold a 10% vote in the EU, no longer will it carry the image of being the capital of the EU by definition of it being outside of the EU. Many of the incentives to incorporate in London will shift to other destinations.

And that'll surely have repercussions, I won't use terms like full on collapse or anything like it, but I expect consequences will be quite substantial.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#76

Post by zeveb »

ubernostrum wrote: post #35
gambiting wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run a small company trading between UK and two other EU countries. This is a disaster - I remember back when you had to pay import duties in countries that haven't joined the EU yet, and basically with razor thin margins, the added cost of bureaucracy would collapse the company now. I'm already considering switching suppliers from UK to Germany, which of course means that UK economy will have less money - and I'm s…

I can't help wondering if there's an effect here like the one that produces anti-vaccination attitudes. We're running out of people who have direct experience of a world before routine vaccination for childhood illnesses, and so the downside of taking the anti-vaccine stance simply isn't apparent to people until their own children die of preventable illness, at which point it's too late to help. Similarly, I wonder i…

> when the UK joined the European common market

The problem is that the EU should have remained the Common Market, instead of growing into a largely unaccountable, largely undemocratic, largely technocratic, ungainly nightmare.

I think that a United States of Europe is inevitable, and even a good idea, but it should have been done slowly, gradually and with respect for the differing peoples of Britain and the Continent. Instead, what took about 150 year for America was rammed through in about 30.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#77

Post by return0 »

rayiner wrote: post #70
return0 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to regain independence. I hope that word doesn't stick. All EU countries are independent, as is the UK. For the sake of all 27 EU countries , please stop using divisive and wrong rhetoric. > Long term, we now have control of our future. I would like to hear one concrete way in which the future is going to be, after the negotiations, substantially different than what it is today. > And can anyone on here really stan…

> I hope that word doesn't stick. All EU countries are independent, as is the UK. For the sake of all 27 EU countries , please stop using divisive and wrong rhetoric. Lesson from the US: You can't have sovereigns with superior sovereigns. Individual US states are on paper sovereign, but in reality have been relegated to being administrative districts of the federal government with little meaningful right to self-dete…

Its not like that, without a common language and currency, EU presence in the UK is not much more than a common set of certain standards.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#78

Post by te_chris »

zeveb wrote: post #65
volatilitish wrote: post #2

As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. The majority of people voted to leave the EU and to regain independence. There will be a little volatility until some facts about how that divorce happens, emerge. Long term, we now have control of our future. In terms of startups though, the EU is there to serve big businesses and powerful establishment. It's there to hinder startups and small businesses. If y…

> As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. Yeah, the spin annoys me too. Had things gone the other way, there'd be patriotic Englishmen experiencing doom, gloom & unease today. There'd be folks who love the U.K. who could say, 'I'm devastated, I think this is a complete disaster.' There would have been folks stunned and appalled that a microscopic majority had managed to end their nation's thousand-ye…

No one would be doing that because it was a campaign built on deceit, lies and the PM's vanity.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#79

Post by djschnei »

dragonwriter wrote: post #63
djschnei wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose, semantically you are correct. I would suggest that a framework for mutually beneficial interaction (interdependence?) doesn't need a bureaucracy to be enforced. In fact, the need for a coercive third party proves the shortcomings of said framework.

> I suppose, semantically you are correct. I would suggest that a framework for mutually beneficial interaction (interdependence?) doesn't need a bureaucracy to be enforced. That's an interesting theory, but I would suggest that most successful such frameworks in human history have included some form of bureaucracy.

Bureaucracies, like everything, come in varying forms and magnitudes. In my years of studying, the most successful frameworks (bureaucracies, whatever you want to call them) served very limited and precise purposes. I agree, for mutually beneficial human cooperation to take place there needs to be something to enforce the rules. In my opinion, those rules all come down to enforcing individual property rights. Anything above and beyond that is detrimental on the whole.

What frameworks would you point to as examples of what you're talking about (besides the EU... cause I think it's objectively a bad example haha)?

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#80

Post by Scirra_Tom »

genzoman wrote: post #31
Scirra_Tom wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conglomeration of power is very useful in some situations. For example, global environmental problems. Have one conglomerate force everyone to do better. If each country acted independently, each country is incentivised to not think about the bigger picture and act in their own short term interests. This was my main reason for voting in.

I do not live in Europe, but this line struck me: "force everyone to do better". Which I interpret as you can't make decisions on your own, big daddy government must make those decisions for you.

Yep, sometimes government can be a force for good you know. I'm assuming your from the US (that's where I generally find the "big daddy government" rhetoric mainly comes from).
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