181–190 of 396 posts
tl;dr we're fucked, and everyone knows it
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've never had a high opinion of a divided Europe, mostly because of the two world wars that started there. The problems driving the brexit will not suddenly get better now. I'll put it this way: has economic isolationism ever made a country better off in the history of history? I can't think of a time.
Do you think the breakup of the USSR was a good thing?
Yes because there were deep systemic problems with the government and economy of the USSR at the time and the breakup was an inevitable result of the powers that be doing the wrong thing for so many years while business and some of the most productive citizens fled to Europe and the US. We're seeing the same thing right now in Venezuela, although Venezuela was never the world's second superpower. Also, Russia's biggest gains (and maybe what saved them after the collapse?) was energy in the form of oil and gas. Venezuela too. If alternative, readily available energy sources take off, this makes natural reserves of oil and gas less useful. Again, we're seeing all this play out now.
No because here we are today. The brexit and weakening of the EU will only strengthen Russia. Why support the EU over Russia? The EU, afaik, does not kill reporters and dissenters. That says a lot about a political organization's philosophy right there.
In general, I think it would be great if everyone on the planet lived in some kind of operationally transparent, porous, federated political structure, and Britain's involvement in the EU was a big step in that direction (which still had many steps to go). This is a step backwards. Meanwhile, today's Russia would do a lot better if they tried a carrot instead of a stick. In any case, now is not the time for leaders to get up from the table and walk away, it doesn't lead anywhere good.
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Independence is a mirage, as is control. No individual nor country in the world is independent. We are all interdependent on one another, and ever more so as the movement of data, goods and people accelerates. The EU is a framework is facilitate that interdependence, and while it has many faults, it was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. Great Britain's future is very dependent on the…
The EU is a vast bureaucracy, not a "framework for interdependence." You don't need a limitless bureaucracy to prevent war, you need free and open commerce. Otto T. Mallery, a late 19th century liberal, in his “Economic Union and Enduring Peace” states, “If soldiers are not to cross international boundaries, goods must do so. Unless the Shackles can be dropped from trade, bombs will be dropped from the sky.” Are you…
Your ideology has been deprecated. Please install upgrades.
Unlike the mythical Freedom Markets™, actual functional open markets require regulation, begetting bureaucracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Utopia_of_Rules
https://www.amazon.com/Utopia-Rules-Technology-Stupidity-Bur...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/oliver-burkeman-co...
http://boingboing.net/2015/02/02/david-graebers-the-utopia-o...
"Are you suggesting that without a central leviathan like the EU, free trade and cooperation is untenable?"
Correct.
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> Long term, we now have control of our future. Not really. Your future is just as bound up with the future of Europe as it was before. The only real difference is that instead of negotiating with the EU as a member, you will have to negotiate as an outsider who has considerably less leverage, and who has recently pissed everyone off. And when you negotiate with non-EU countries, it will be even worse for you. As a m…
Regaining control was always about more than economic control. If you're in the EU, I hope you realise that you're currently being ruled by people you didn't elect, people in the pocket of big business, who have set out to concentrate power in the hands of a small selected group. I've heard some EU apologists claim that they don't believe in democracy, but some of us still do.
Everyone in the EU is ruled by their own elected government. The unelected bureaucrats in Brussels don't rule anybody. Their ability to make decisions for member states is limited by treaties. In any case, the UK was significantly more independent than other EU states in terms of currency and economic issues.
> people in the pocket of big business, who have set out to concentrate power in the hands of a small selected group
Ah, conspiracy theories.
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The EU is not some sort of sovereign. It's an organization staffed by bureaucrats (i.e., unelected officials) for the purpose of furthering the agreed upon goals of the member sovereign states. Comparison with U.S. is ridiculous.
There is an EU Parliament, and it can make binding law. So it's pretty disingenuous to make it seem like the UN or WTO.
As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. The majority of people voted to leave the EU and to regain independence. There will be a little volatility until some facts about how that divorce happens, emerge. Long term, we now have control of our future. In terms of startups though, the EU is there to serve big businesses and powerful establishment. It's there to hinder startups and small businesses. If y…
Independence is a mirage, as is control. No individual nor country in the world is independent. We are all interdependent on one another, and ever more so as the movement of data, goods and people accelerates. The EU is a framework is facilitate that interdependence, and while it has many faults, it was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. Great Britain's future is very dependent on the…
You couldn't be more wrong here. If anything the creation of the EU makes war much more likely, precisely because of the inevitability of its breakup. The UK is just the first to go, but many more countries will leave too, effectively finishing off the EU project. And with the end of the EU, comes the bitter divorce between European countries, which is fertile grounds for a new world war.
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> I hope that word doesn't stick. All EU countries are independent, as is the UK. For the sake of all 27 EU countries , please stop using divisive and wrong rhetoric. Lesson from the US: You can't have sovereigns with superior sovereigns. Individual US states are on paper sovereign, but in reality have been relegated to being administrative districts of the federal government with little meaningful right to self-dete…
The EU is not some sort of sovereign. It's an organization staffed by bureaucrats (i.e., unelected officials) for the purpose of furthering the agreed upon goals of the member sovereign states. Comparison with U.S. is ridiculous.
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London will give up its position as "world financial capital," I would think. That always seemed a bit odd, and now that they're losing one of their main advantages...
They are gaining one! Swiss banking privacy rules down under EU pressure. The UK now have freedom to keep large money more private than Swiss can do from now.
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There is an EU Parliament, and it can make binding law. So it's pretty disingenuous to make it seem like the UN or WTO.
Not binding for citizens. local governments have to conform to EU laws though.
http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/legal-acts/index_en....
As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. The majority of people voted to leave the EU and to regain independence. There will be a little volatility until some facts about how that divorce happens, emerge. Long term, we now have control of our future. In terms of startups though, the EU is there to serve big businesses and powerful establishment. It's there to hinder startups and small businesses. If y…
Independence is a mirage, as is control. No individual nor country in the world is independent. We are all interdependent on one another, and ever more so as the movement of data, goods and people accelerates. The EU is a framework is facilitate that interdependence, and while it has many faults, it was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. Great Britain's future is very dependent on the…
Last time I checked membership in the EU is voluntary. Why should there be punishment?