Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit • Hacker News Board

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#31

Post by genzoman » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:13 PM UTC

Scirra_Tom wrote: post #22

x5n1 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes right now. This can be fixed without giving up sovereignty. Many things that the EU is supposed to be solve can be solved via individual treaties. There is no need to give away the farm to get small benefits. At the end of the day the world is better off without conglomeration of power. Any of them are a bad idea. Individual treaties for problem points are the way to go.

Conglomeration of power is very useful in some situations. For example, global environmental problems. Have one conglomerate force everyone to do better. If each country acted independently, each country is incentivised to not think about the bigger picture and act in their own short term interests. This was my main reason for voting in.

I do not live in Europe, but this line struck me: "force everyone to do better". Which I interpret as you can't make decisions on your own, big daddy government must make those decisions for you.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#32

Post by djschnei » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:13 PM UTC

Scirra_Tom wrote: post #24

searine wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. As if. It was created as an amalgamation of post-war globalist trade deals. The EU administrative bodies were tacked on later to make it palatable as a governing body. It's not inherently bad that an organization is founded on trade, but don't shit on my plate and call it pudding.

> It was created as an amalgamation of post-war globalist trade deals. To deincentivise countries going to war with each other...

No, free trade did that. The EU does not have a patent on free trade. In fact, they are pretty horrible at it.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#33

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:14 PM UTC

djschnei wrote: post #30

vonnik wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independence is a mirage, as is control. No individual nor country in the world is independent. We are all interdependent on one another, and ever more so as the movement of data, goods and people accelerates. The EU is a framework is facilitate that interdependence, and while it has many faults, it was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. Great Britain's future is very dependent on the…

The EU is a vast bureaucracy, not a "framework for interdependence." You don't need a limitless bureaucracy to prevent war, you need free and open commerce. Otto T. Mallery, a late 19th century liberal, in his “Economic Union and Enduring Peace” states, “If soldiers are not to cross international boundaries, goods must do so. Unless the Shackles can be dropped from trade, bombs will be dropped from the sky.” Are you…

> The EU is a vast bureaucracy, not a "framework for interdependence."

Frameworks for interdependence and vast bureaucracies aren't mutually exclusive (in fact, they often go together: the US federal government is both of those things, too.)

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#34

Post by robk » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:14 PM UTC

Scirra_Tom wrote: post #8

volatilitish wrote: post #2

As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. The majority of people voted to leave the EU and to regain independence. There will be a little volatility until some facts about how that divorce happens, emerge. Long term, we now have control of our future. In terms of startups though, the EU is there to serve big businesses and powerful establishment. It's there to hinder startups and small businesses. If y…

> If you're pro-small business, then you should be excited about the opportunities we have now. Such as? Please elaborate. One thing we can look forwards to is paying VAT to every EU country individually. That's going to be fun.

How's that? An American company doesn't charge VAT unless they have a EU subsidiary. UK would be closer to that treatment

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#35

Post by ubernostrum » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:14 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #15

volatilitish wrote: post #2

As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. The majority of people voted to leave the EU and to regain independence. There will be a little volatility until some facts about how that divorce happens, emerge. Long term, we now have control of our future. In terms of startups though, the EU is there to serve big businesses and powerful establishment. It's there to hinder startups and small businesses. If y…

I run a small company trading between UK and two other EU countries. This is a disaster - I remember back when you had to pay import duties in countries that haven't joined the EU yet, and basically with razor thin margins, the added cost of bureaucracy would collapse the company now. I'm already considering switching suppliers from UK to Germany, which of course means that UK economy will have less money - and I'm s…

I can't help wondering if there's an effect here like the one that produces anti-vaccination attitudes. We're running out of people who have direct experience of a world before routine vaccination for childhood illnesses, and so the downside of taking the anti-vaccine stance simply isn't apparent to people until their own children die of preventable illness, at which point it's too late to help.

Similarly, I wonder if it's simply been long enough -- when the UK joined the European common market, today's pensioners were too young to have much if any experience of the business/labor world -- that the people of the UK are in a similar situation of not realizing just what a risk they're taking, or how bad the consequences can be, since they have no direct experience.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#36

Post by masklinn » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:15 PM UTC

vonnik wrote: post #14

volatilitish wrote: post #2

As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. The majority of people voted to leave the EU and to regain independence. There will be a little volatility until some facts about how that divorce happens, emerge. Long term, we now have control of our future. In terms of startups though, the EU is there to serve big businesses and powerful establishment. It's there to hinder startups and small businesses. If y…

Independence is a mirage, as is control. No individual nor country in the world is independent. We are all interdependent on one another, and ever more so as the movement of data, goods and people accelerates. The EU is a framework is facilitate that interdependence, and while it has many faults, it was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. Great Britain's future is very dependent on the…

> Every power structure is co-optable by large corporations and special interests. The Leave leaders are no different.

Quite the opposite, and an old Murdoch quote resurfaced[0] covering exactly that:

> I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”

[0] http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/anthony-hilton-sta...

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#37

Post by rcarmo » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:15 PM UTC

I'm biased, but I'm going to say this anyway, since I've spent the morning talking to former colleagues living as expats in the UK and to a couple of the local nearshoring gigs, which are also in shock: if you're coming to Lisbon for the Web Summit this year, take the time to investigate the Portuguese startup ecosystem - a lot has changed recently, and if Brexit bottoms out the tech industry in the UK the option of coming back home might be feasible.

Here's a quick primer:

https://medium.com/@isss111/the-portuguese-startup-scene-201...

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#38

Post by dave_sullivan » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:15 PM UTC

coderdude wrote: post #6

volatilitish wrote: post #2

As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. The majority of people voted to leave the EU and to regain independence. There will be a little volatility until some facts about how that divorce happens, emerge. Long term, we now have control of our future. In terms of startups though, the EU is there to serve big businesses and powerful establishment. It's there to hinder startups and small businesses. If y…

Good for the grandmother country to break out on its own. I've never had a high opinion of the EU. Mostly because of their ridiculous laws about the internet. I'm happy about this and I hope it works out well.

I've never had a high opinion of a divided Europe, mostly because of the two world wars that started there. The problems driving the brexit will not suddenly get better now.

I'll put it this way: has economic isolationism ever made a country better off in the history of history? I can't think of a time.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#39

Post by genzoman » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:15 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #26

djschnei wrote: post #12

A bureaucracy in Brussels is hardly necessary to enact simple pan-European tariff reductions. It is necessary, however, to begin building what globalism truly demands: a de facto European government, complete with dense regulatory and tax rules, quasi-judicial bodies, a nascent military, and further subordination of national, linguistic, and cultural identities.

Why should the people of England care what globalism "demands"?

Because everyone on twitter will call you a xenophobe/right wing anarchist if you don't.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#40

Post by justin66 » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 7:16 PM UTC

dr_ick wrote: post #27

illumin8 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36623723 "American banks JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley are able to sell to the rest of Europe from London under special "passporting" arrangements. Even before the negotiations with the EU begin, both have said they may need to move staff to the EU to serve their European customers. JP Morgan alone has warned up to 4,000 jobs could leave the UK. Airbus employs 15,000 people in the UK a…

So no companies have announced they are moving. They are evaluating the situation, as any responsible corporation should. The UK banking system is not about to collapse.

London will give up its position as "world financial capital," I would think. That always seemed a bit odd, and now that they're losing one of their main advantages...