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Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

swissinfo.ch

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Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#541

Post by illumen »

stale2002 wrote: post #527
illumen wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people spread lies about immigrants, and put them on the internet, in print, or say them at demonstrations to thousands -- then those have a proven affect to incite violence. This violence happens against innocent people who did not break the law. I am against that. The people who brake the law with their hateful comments inciting violence deserve to face the consequences of the law. (which is not always violenc…

"If you think there is really some conspiracy to hide the statistics of rapes by immigrants, then do the research and prove it." And how would I go about doing that? Apparently if I make this argument, then people like you will try and send me to jail (or fine me or whatever).

How do you go about making arguments based on reality and evidence? Probably something you should look into.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#542

Post by _nedR »

enraged_camel wrote: post #403
_nedR wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were to have kids, think about the financial security owning a home provides them.

What financial security? I take it you have completely forgotten about the 2009 crash?

I was thinking that one would have paid off all mortgages by the time the children inherit the house.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#543

Post by kasey_junk »

brianwawok wrote: post #509
tptacek wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a weird comment. Is this a Baltimore thing? American cities are full of families. With the possible exceptions of San Francisco and Manhattan, they are mostly families, aren't they?

Depends if you mean with kids or not. Most college educated families with kids in Chicago move out of city limits post kids to avoid the bomb that is Chicago Public Schools.

Do you have stats to back that up?

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#544

Post by Godel_unicode »

Houshalter wrote: post #193
chvid wrote: post #139

I think this is a nice demonstration of how well direct democracy can work. The argument against direct democracy (referendums on any subject any sizeable group wants to put on vote) is that people will be economically irresponsible and vote themselves popular, expensive goodies with no regards of financing or cost. This shows otherwise.

The argument against direct democracy is that the population isn't very informed. Not necessarily that they are selfish. Even in the US, voters often tend to vote against their own self interest. E.g. people that stand to benefit from social programs often vote for conservatives against social programs.

Could it be that those people think that more social programs would only be in their self-interest in the short term, and are taking a longer view (as appears to have just happened in Switzerland)?

Why is anyone who votes against short-term self-interest automatically uninformed?

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#545

Post by Godel_unicode »

rbanffy wrote: post #463
nickik wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Swiss let me give you my opinion of this. First I will say that I voted against this. Lets be honest here, the 'minaret' issue is extremely minor one. I does not effect large numbers of people and it does not effecte them in a particularly strong way. Based on first principle I voted against it, but was not the most important issue for me or for Switzerland. Most of the time the results Switzerland gets to usual…

> Lets be honest here, the 'minaret' issue is extremely minor one. Not at all. It violates the very idea of freedom of religion. I doubt a ban on building of churches would be approved and this shows that a more popular group can (and does) trample on fundamental human rights of other smaller groups.

I guess it's a good thing mosques aren't minarets. I see this as a good compromise between "we want to allow others to practice their religion" and "we want to preserve our own cultural heritage". Not knowing the back story of why that line is in the Constitution, I hope it's there as this type of concrete example; practice your religion, build your mosque, but meet Switzerland halfway architecturally speaking.

Also, your metaphor is incorrect; this is banning bell towers not banning churches.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#546

Post by formula_ninguna »

nickik wrote: post #245
areyoucrazy wrote: post #184

Why is Basic Income such a popular topic on Hacker News?

Because hackers tend to believe in the idea that automation and advanced AI causes a reduction of jobs and the destruction of middle class. This leads to a lot of rich people who control the AI and robots and a lot of poor who can't find jobs. To counteract this, Basic income is a good idea because it allows for low risk job switching, furthering education and a small bureaucracy but extensive social safety net.

Exactly. Most hackers are in the middle class. Hence, whether you'll get basic income or not, you'll still move in the low class then, won't you?

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#547

Post by herbst »

enraged_camel wrote: post #97
akerro wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As already mentioned, you're ignoring a fact that even by working there for 10 years, it's close to impossible to buy a part of land and build a house anywhere near a city. Land and house prices are too high to stay there for live. It's only profitable to live there, make savings and buy 2-3 houses in Uk/Germany for it. Like two of my co-workers did.

I've never understood why people believe/feel that buying land and/or a house is the pinnacle of... something. Sure, it gives the person a feeling of control and stability. But rooting oneself in one labor market (vs. being mobile) decreases one's employment options and therefore their salary. It's also very risky, as it's the equivalent of putting one's eggs in one basket and leaves their financial wellbeing in the…

"You just pay about 70% you would pay for the rent and the house is yours in 30 years! But you need to fix all issues yourself and comply a lot of third party rules how everything has to look and work".

I dont get it ether, this sounds like the worst deal not even including the fact that i might do not want to live there in 30 years.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#548

Post by herbst »

misja111 wrote: post #444
s3nnyy wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're referring to restaurants, that is because the waitress makes around 4000 CHF per month; if you're referring to food in supermarket that is because the clerk behind the counter gets 25 CHF / hour and not 7 EUR like in Germany.

Not only that, but Switzerland puts import fees on quite a number of food items. For instance, Swiss meat farmers are heavily protected, and that shows when you check the prices for meat in the supermarket or in a restaurant. A steak can cost three times as much as over the border in Germany.

I cant talk for anyone but this is something we highly value in this country. You pay more but you usually get always good quality. Its not a hit or miss like in the surrounding countries.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#549

Post by gonvaled »

nairboon wrote: post #314

One of the reasons why it was rejected, is because the supporters were slightly too idealistic. The elephant in the room is obviously, who would be eligible for the BI. Most of the supporters and some of the initiators of the initiative, that I've spoken with, were strongly for a idealistic implementation, meaning everybody physically located in Switzerland would be eligible. While the number one argument against a B…

I hope that if your BI is only for citizens and since this is presumably financed by taxes, you are going to grant a big tax exemption to non Swiss nationals, since they (according to your plan) will have no chance of benefiting from BI. What other ramifications this can have is difficult to foresee.

The nice things about simple plans is that they are simple: once you start complicating matters, it gets really messy.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#550

Post by herbst »

jeena wrote: post #498
s3nnyy wrote: post #37

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the…

This may not come as a suprise to people from the US, but my sister (who lives and works near Zurich) says you have to pay everything yourself. Dentist, doctor, they just got a child and the father got one day off work if i got it correctly, and she only a couple of weeks. Still children stay at home untill they are 5 or something, you just have to pay someone privatly if you want to work. The list goes on and on and…

This is not exactly true. Doctor is paid by your health care but you usually pay the fees before you get them back (if you can, otherwise you just send it to them and done). Dentists are included in a health care plus plan which you only get when you are already healthy, its not expensive like $40+ a month. You are right that mothership holidays is not that long, in my experience most people just take a month or two off unpaid.

If there is anything you can not afford there is a huge social infrastructure to help you out. There is no reason your kids should miss one something.

Also dont forget that these salaries include 4 weeks and more paid holidays.

All of these things are not included in american health care & social plans ether so i dont know why i even write that comment right now.

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