Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters • Hacker News Board

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#311

Post by jdavis703 » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #302

Hermel wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite an ignorant view. The solution is simple: keep a reserve, put everything into the budget and don't spend the money if it gets rejected. For example, my local community has liquid assets of about 50 millions and no debt. So if there is a vote on a new school for 20 millions that gets rejected, the 50 millions stay there for future ideas. It's quite simple, really. I find the idea that a budget must always…

"Keep a reserve" is the hard part. Most countries are in debt. Even if you have a reserve to begin with we can disregard it as a temporary luxury - long term the budget must be in balance or the reserve will disappear. If you vote for "2% raised taxes" or "expand railway network" only the combination (yes, yes) and (no, no) can balance the budget. People would likely vote against the tax increase but for the infrastr…

It's quite common to have both bundled together when voting on ballot measures. In the East Bay there was recently a proposition to expand public transport via a temporary increase in sales tax called measure BB.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#312

Post by krmboya » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

s3nnyy wrote: post #37

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the…

This is so compelling! I'd like to experience such a place.

However being from some part of this planet I googled a few keywords and came across this: https://www.vice.com/read/guide-to-european-racist-leagues

The website features a lot in HN so but I don't know about the quality of their journalism. Anyway, you never know till you try...

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#313

Post by hocuspocus » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

dom96 wrote: post #305

s3nnyy wrote: post #37

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the…

You might not be the right person to ask this, but maybe somebody else from Switzerland will be able to. I'm starting a coding internship in Geneva in about two months and I was wondering whether you would have any advice about renting apartments in the area. For example, should I be trying to find apartments in France, or am I better off sticking with Switzerland. Should I be getting in touch with estate agents in t…

The real-estate market in Geneva can be pretty daunting. Low supply, high demand, wary landlords...

* I wouldn't bother with France unless you're willing to drive and waste a lot of time in traffic jams. Annemasse is the exception, but it's pretty sketchy imho.

* On the other hand, living in the countryside can be a good option. Public transportation works better than if you cross the border, and biking to work can be reasonably doable.

* Living a bit further in Vaud, near a train station, is a good option too.

* Most apartments belong to estate companies (régies immobilières), not individual landlords. Contacting them directly is definitely the way to go.

* https://www.scrapeo.com (disclaimer: it's run by friends of mine, you can scroll down and see the websites they're scraping if you prefer).

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#314

Post by nairboon » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:03 PM UTC

One of the reasons why it was rejected, is because the supporters were slightly too idealistic. The elephant in the room is obviously, who would be eligible for the BI.

Most of the supporters and some of the initiators of the initiative, that I've spoken with, were strongly for a idealistic implementation, meaning everybody physically located in Switzerland would be eligible. While the number one argument against a BI was that exactly this absolute unconditionality would be a recipe for a disaster, especially given the current migration situation in the EU.

The Swiss are notoriously risk averse, so any proposal that does not take into account any possible side effects, usually gets rejected with a margin just like this one.

To have a realistic chance of acceptance, I think the 'unconditional' needs to be dropped. Add a conditional on citizenship, flesh out the financing some more and just try again. The problem here is that a "national basic income" instantly catapults you politically very far right, even though it's a very leftist position.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#315

Post by afterburner » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:03 PM UTC

njs12345 wrote: post #140

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, the cleaning of rented flats in Switzerland is one step down from operating theatres. (While yes the keeping the deposit is a landlord trick the world over, the reasons given are very Swiss) A friend of mine tried to keep their deposit by cleaning it themselves ("took two days and was spotless"). Because the landlady had not got a note from a cleaning firm saying it was clean, she literally could not ren…

With regard to deposit scams, the system we have in the UK works pretty well - the landlord must put the deposit in a government-approved escrow scheme, which then decides any disputes over how much of the deposit should be held back (anecdotally quite fairly). If the landlord fails to protect your deposit, and does so in what might be considered bad faith, a court will often order them to pay you 3x the deposit as c…

It's even simpler in Ontario: security/cleaning deposits are not allowed.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#316

Post by bane » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:08 PM UTC

soyiuz wrote: post #244

akerro wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on the opposite, I never understood how people can not own a house and waste money on renting for decades. Where market for houses in western countries is very limited due to stupid regulations and every year a few millions of people move to that country causing renting prices to increase by XX% each year. It decreases my financial stability. Losing a job for less than a month is a financial disaster, I still to…

Re: renting is wasting money. Think of the math this way. A $1mil condo in New York generates approximately 45k/yr income, or 4.5% return on investment per year in rents. Subtract taxes and amortization and ask yourself, can you get similar returns elsewhere? You could for example purchase an index fund with the same $1mil and contribute the gains towards rent. Either way you are living "for free." It is however risk…

To make your plan work, you'd have to have around $1mil in investment dollars that you'd place into various investments to make the "free" rent money. Since you're relying on those investments to provide shelter, they're just as illiquid as owning property (except with property you can make money off of it).

The best plan here is to keep $800k in investments, move to rural nowhere and buy a huge house for $200k cash and live off the investment income entirely and not bother working. You can then rent off portions of the property (a bedroom, a basement, airbnb etc.) to surge your income if you need it.

If you don't have $1mil up front to start, like most people, building equity in the place you live makes far more financial sense over time than does renting because you both get to live there and because it doubles as an investment. Starting from the same lack of a million dollars, renting only covers cost of living and does not provide for any investment opportunity.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#317

Post by nairboon » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

980198201 wrote: post #61

_yosefk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can say this about any level of democracy though (that its downside is populistic decisions, or, more precisely, decisions that you or I think are wrong.) It's easy to find a country where most decisions are made by elected leaders and they chose leaders you or I find terrible, who proceeded to make a lot of bad decisions. I don't see an argument either for more or less direct democracy here (though I guess with…

I'm not so sure about corruption and cronyism. Perhaps a Swiss person could comment here, but from reading some Friedrich Duerrenmatt novels the picture isn't that rosy either over there.

It depends on the social class. For the high-level classes, corruption is not frowned upon.

There was a politician that forwarded state secrets to Kazakhstan and got bribed. The thing is if you apologize and publicly declare that it was a mistake to get caught, no one bats an eye. She's now head of the parliament. The unofficial rule is, just don't overdo it...

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#318

Post by bane » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

rs999gti wrote: post #175

akerro wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on the opposite, I never understood how people can not own a house and waste money on renting for decades. Where market for houses in western countries is very limited due to stupid regulations and every year a few millions of people move to that country causing renting prices to increase by XX% each year. It decreases my financial stability. Losing a job for less than a month is a financial disaster, I still to…

> waste money on renting How is renting wasting money? Are you not living in the unit? You're gaining 100% benefit by paying rent and receiving a roof over your head. You must mean a waste by losing out on building equity? That's a crap shoot in itself. A hot housing market and equity can go into the toilet at anytime due to very irrational market conditions. Look at the housing markets of Las Vegas or Miami for exam…

It's very simple, even outside of equity earning and the ups and downs of the housing market, once you pay off your mortgage, you now have a place to live that's fairly close to free (other than maintenance, utilities and taxes). If your home is large enough, you can even turn it into a revenue generating asset by renting out portions or all of it.

Rents also tend to go up with inflation, once you enter into a mortgage agreement, mortgages do not and thus you end up paying less over time (in real dollars) to live than if you rent. Since most people's income goes up, this means that renting tends to stay at about the same percent of income over a person's lifetime while it becomes less and less of a part of somebody's income who has purchased.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#319

Post by defen » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

soyiuz wrote: post #244

akerro wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on the opposite, I never understood how people can not own a house and waste money on renting for decades. Where market for houses in western countries is very limited due to stupid regulations and every year a few millions of people move to that country causing renting prices to increase by XX% each year. It decreases my financial stability. Losing a job for less than a month is a financial disaster, I still to…

Re: renting is wasting money. Think of the math this way. A $1mil condo in New York generates approximately 45k/yr income, or 4.5% return on investment per year in rents. Subtract taxes and amortization and ask yourself, can you get similar returns elsewhere? You could for example purchase an index fund with the same $1mil and contribute the gains towards rent. Either way you are living "for free." It is however risk…

A person with $1 million available to put into an index fund is the 1%, and advice for them is not really applicable to the general population. For "normal" people, buying a house can be a good idea because you can deduct the interest from your income. It also gives you much more stability in terms of monthly housing payments if you get a fixed-rate mortgage (unless rent control is an option). Finally, you also "get back" a portion of your mortgage payments when you sell the house. You never get your rent money back.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#320

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 4:13 PM UTC

s3nnyy wrote: post #37

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the…

[deleted]