Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

swissinfo.ch

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 600 posts

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#221

Post by pipio21 »

Vaebn wrote: post #78
areyoucrazy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downside are populistic decisions like the Swiss minaret referendum... Oh, you liberals. You hide behind democracy when, in fact, you are a bunch of tyrants who would like to jam your ideas of immigration, multiculturalism, socialism etc. down the people's throats whether they like it or not. Why are you labeling direct democratic decision by majority of people as bad/downside? It seems that when people do someth…

Because its all fun and games until the "majority" suddenly realize they can just say "oh, and also, how about we vote to take all the money of that 10% here". There is such a thing as tyranny by the minority, and tyranny by the majority. The second is in fact much easier to do, since the first requires a modicum of power & ability for someone to keep himself in that position. The minaret thing is irrelevant, as a mi…

Your rights, any right, ends when the rights of others start.

You want to build things you damn like? Better those things not to create noise that enters my private property, and my private ears.

My right not to be disturbed is more important than your right to build whatever you want.

All predators, humans included, have this thing called "territory". When someone comes from outside the country and starts filling the ambient noise with her sounds, they are actually claiming ownership of everything.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#222

Post by NhanH »

areyoucrazy wrote: post #68

Basic Income + Open Borders = National Suicide This proposal probably wouldn't pass in USA as well, especially given the fact that it's easy to get a Green Card and citizenship.

You're talking out of your ass, with the exception if you consider having $500k-1mil in cash + probably a few years of your life to spend "easy".

(I apologize for the lack of substance, I'm a bit pissed off from the blatant ignorance).

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#224

Post by stephenhuey »

Keyframe wrote: post #118
s3nnyy wrote: post #37

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the…

I don't know about Zurich, but Bern is damn beautiful place to be at. Expensive, as all Switzerland is though.

And the Bethlehem area of Bern is affordable and accessible via tram.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#225

Post by jeffdavis »

opendomain wrote: post #186
enraged_camel wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why people believe/feel that buying land and/or a house is the pinnacle of... something. Sure, it gives the person a feeling of control and stability. But rooting oneself in one labor market (vs. being mobile) decreases one's employment options and therefore their salary. It's also very risky, as it's the equivalent of putting one's eggs in one basket and leaves their financial wellbeing in the…

In the US, we get a tax savings for owning rather than renting. Also renting includes a required profit for the owner. When you rent, your monthly bill includes everything the owner has to pay (mortgage, taxes, utilities), plus their profit. When you buy, you pay mortgage, taxes, and utilities, but no extra for profit. Also, you get to deduce the local taxes you pay on your national taxes, so overall you pay less. Al…

Just because someone else is profiting from you doesn't mean you are wasting money.

Let's say you save $100k. You can either buy a house, or put the money in the stock market. If you put it in the stock market, you get a return but that return ends up going to your landlord's profit. If you but the house you get no return but don't pay the landlord's profit.

In other words, it's an investment. If you believe that the RE market has better ROI, and don't mind being rooted, then go for it. If you believe the stock market has better ROI and you prefer to be mobile, do the stock market.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#226

Post by trgn »

funkyy wrote: post #145
akerro wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As already mentioned, you're ignoring a fact that even by working there for 10 years, it's close to impossible to buy a part of land and build a house anywhere near a city. Land and house prices are too high to stay there for live. It's only profitable to live there, make savings and buy 2-3 houses in Uk/Germany for it. Like two of my co-workers did.

Or you can buy studio in the city and huge farm house with land 1 hour drive away... Then weekends spend in your farm house and weekdays in your studio... It would be close enough to pop in in week days also. 1 hour drive aint bad.

That would be the best of city living (practical, all amenities in walking distance, low maintenance, social), and the best of rural living (bucolic, silent, spacious, reserved).

It's much better to separate it out than try to combine it in one suburban house.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#227

Post by kazinator »

elcapitan wrote: post #4

I wish I would live in a country where essential political decisions like that are made by the people and not by some professional political elite in a far away capital.

What if you were a discriminated minority, and important decisions specifically affected you were put to a referendum?

Oops, 60% of the populace thinks you're a nuisance who should just shut up and put up (and ideally just go away).

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#228

Post by Eric_WVGG »

funkyy wrote: post #145
akerro wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As already mentioned, you're ignoring a fact that even by working there for 10 years, it's close to impossible to buy a part of land and build a house anywhere near a city. Land and house prices are too high to stay there for live. It's only profitable to live there, make savings and buy 2-3 houses in Uk/Germany for it. Like two of my co-workers did.

Or you can buy studio in the city and huge farm house with land 1 hour drive away... Then weekends spend in your farm house and weekdays in your studio... It would be close enough to pop in in week days also. 1 hour drive aint bad.

A two hour daily commute is like 12% of your waking hours crumpled and thrown away. That sounds like hell.

Two hours is a long time! Sit around for the two hours doing nothing, you'll see.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#229

Post by nickik »

_nalply wrote: post #7
elcapitan wrote: post #4

I wish I would live in a country where essential political decisions like that are made by the people and not by some professional political elite in a far away capital.

The downside are populistic decisions like the Swiss minaret referendum. Now we have the sentence «The construction of minarets is prohibited.» in the constitution. ( https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/... ) I think such regulations should be decreed as a law and not as a constitution norm if at all. But if everybody has a say you get bikeshedding in the constitution.

As a Swiss let me give you my opinion of this. First I will say that I voted against this.

Lets be honest here, the 'minaret' issue is extremely minor one. I does not effect large numbers of people and it does not effecte them in a particularly strong way. Based on first principle I voted against it, but was not the most important issue for me or for Switzerland.

Most of the time the results Switzerland gets to usually are really good. Many things that passed in other countries did not pass in Switzerland.

I think that the argument that Swiss democracy is bad because of this minaret example, is extremely weak. If that the best argument you can bring against the Swiss system, then its doing something right. You can't find cases of gross misjudgment or fiscal or social issues or anything like that? I can find stuff like that in most other countries.

The Swiss system can also be used to remove stuff from the constitution. So this minaret stuff need not be there forever.

Edit: One addition I would make to the system is that if a law is rejected by a 'human rights' evaluation group, it needs to pass with 2/3 majority.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#230

Post by etatoby »

backtoyoujim wrote: post #135
enraged_camel wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why people believe/feel that buying land and/or a house is the pinnacle of... something. Sure, it gives the person a feeling of control and stability. But rooting oneself in one labor market (vs. being mobile) decreases one's employment options and therefore their salary. It's also very risky, as it's the equivalent of putting one's eggs in one basket and leaves their financial wellbeing in the…

The American Dream was narrated by banks in the USA as a way of fighting "the Red terra" and to make the populace wear the yolk of a mortgage. People with mortgages generally don't protest or strike. As American hegemony spun the globe so did the "own your acres".

This is ridiculous.

Here in Europe we have been taking mortgages to buy property long before the USA was born, in fact since the Renaissance.

It certainly is a long-term contract, but nobody really considers it a "yolk." After a number of years your debt is paid and you can keep living in your place without paying anything else.

The alternative is to keep paying rent forever, well into retirement. Which one do you think is smarter?

Post reply on HN