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An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

reuters.com

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Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#271

Post by studentrob »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #215

"a vibrant East Asian industry "? There were 30 students out of a student population of 30,000 that used this service. That comes to, what, 0.1 percent? How many of the other 49,970 students hedged their bets in other shady ways (sharing papers, duplicating homework, covering one another for labs)? This is not a situation limited to those unscrupulous foreigners. The whole article smacks of nationalism. I know, its p…

> I know, its pretty cynical to have a business dedicated to systemized cheating. But how is that different from sororities and frats that make available (and sell) last years notes/exams? That's often a thriving cottage industry.

It isn't different. Cheating is cheating. This is an article about a business catering to Chinese students, called Fanyi Translation [1] [2].

If you have another article about fraternities or sororities cheating, you're welcome to submit it to HN for discussion.

[1] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&...

[2] http://archive.is/XNZD1

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#272

Post by studentrob »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #268
sevensor wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're playing the system, and the system is playing them. Everybody loses, and neither party is innocent. In the short term, the people who pay the most disproportionate price are the honest students, especially the many honest Chinese students who aren't involved in cheating. In the long run, we in the U.S. will have to face the music for over-pricing and devaluing the university experience, and China will have to…

Just because I sell an expensive product doesn't give you the right to rip me off nor does it make me guilty of anything. I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. No one is pointing a gun at these kids to come to the states and commit fraud.

> I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here.

Agreed. People make laws. People have a right to point the finger once in awhile to justify new laws or policies

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#273

Post by TDL »

studentrob wrote: post #267
TDL wrote: post #240

Reading some of the comments here makes it clear that we (the global we) have way overvalued the piece of paper that we get upon graduation and have largely ignored the process, habits, & knowledge that said piece of paper once stood for. The problem with all these developing nations & cheating isn't one of moral failing, but the fact that a cred is valued more than what the cred is supposed to stand for. I would arg…

> we (the global we) have way overvalued the piece of paper that we get upon graduation Well, that's subjective. It's meaningful to some people and not to others Schools aren't meant to be perfect. Reputation is meant to help people identify trustworthy parties more quickly. That doesn't mean you can't re-scrutinize a school or person yourself. It's simply one optional filter. Some people find this more useful than o…

I said we have overvalued the certifications/diplomas, not that they don't have value. I also never implied that schools were meant to be perfect.

My point is that we have zeroed in on the certification/diploma too much and have begun (until recently) paying too much attention to whether the cert has been attained as opposed to what it is supposed to represent. The reason why I believe this happened is because it is much easier to quantify a diploma or any other certification, "Oh you graduated! That must mean X." It is harder to ascertain whether or not a person who gained a diploma or cert actually deserves it or learned anything in the process.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#274

Post by davidmr »

studentrob wrote: post #163
davidmr wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no relevant experience in academic finance, but I sincerely doubt it. The brand and reputation of the universities are what allows them to charge so much for tuition and get prestigious faculty (i.e. grant money). Besides, at a large research University, tuition is usually not the majority of their income ( http://www.uiowa.edu/homepage/about-university/budget )

> The brand and reputation of the universities are what allows them to charge so much for tuition and get prestigious faculty (i.e. grant money). The effects of this issue are not widely understood by the general public. The general public think this kind of thing doesn't hurt the quality of education in the US. We know better. Only we know because we all attended schools for science which are inundated with Chinese…

I'm not even sure where to start with this. I went to a fancypants-ish school in the University of Chicago which does not have a Harvard or Yale-sized endowment so they likely did care about tuition. We did indeed have a lot of Chinese undergrads and grad students. They were every bit as smart as anyone else there, so I doubt they were there because of their tuition money alone, but on their academic merits.

Also, your extension of the argument about STEM grad students doesn't make much sense because STEM grad students almost never have to pay for school, or at least didn't at the UofC. If you can fake your way through a Ph.D. physics program at a reputable university, you deserve the diploma.

I'm having a hard time reading your comment as anything other than a statement that you wish there were less Chinese students at your school just because you don't want them there. Did I completely miss your point here?

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#275

Post by sammydavis »

pnathan wrote: post #270
Nokinside wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I attended a conference where young Chinese PhD was giving presentation and nobody could understand what he was saying. Finally one of the organizing professors interrupted him and requested that he should speak English. "But I'm speaking English." he replied with desperation in his voice. He knew his stuff and could write and read English well, but it was very hard to understand what he was saying.

> He knew his stuff and could write and read English well, Right, I really don't have any way to assess that of a grad student I meet in the halls if they can't speak to me. They may be brilliant , they may be the best student there, and be totally walled off from everyone who doesn't speak their native tongue. I feel bad for them... but I don't think they should be in a grad school where English is the lingua franca…

It is a requirement, it's just that apparently the test of English as a foreign language (TOEFL?) either are too easily cheated or aren't adequately checking for that. I should add I knew many excellent students in grad school, from dozens of countries, and good and bad us students :-) I never achieved any fluency in other languages, it would be incredibly hard to learn Mandarian or another non-romance language,and I appreciate the challenge for them.

At my grad school, there were students from two countries that there seemed to be widespread believe that there was widespread cheating. This included (not really cheating things) like copies of all tests given by any professor in the past. I didn't believe it at first, but then someone from said country showed it to me.

It's hard to believe if you really were cheating, how could you make it through a bachelors in CS? Someone should notice, right? I was a TA of a class where the prof eventually figured out one student was copying from another student. He gave him an F.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#276

Post by studentrob »

mahranch wrote: post #209
andrey_utkin wrote: post #203

Have seen at last one Chinese guy's profile on Upwork having some test passed with maximum score, completed within ~5 minutes (while the time for a test is usually ~40 minutes).

This is something that isn't just unique to higher education in the U.S, it's pretty much standard practice back in China as well. It's all about rote memorization & tests. What you can't memorize, you find a way to cheat through. You can't cheat? Then buy off your professor or teacher. Bribing educators in China is the quickest and easiest way to pass. Practically no creative learning takes place in China. This is i…

> Unfortunately, I think because this has its roots in China's culture (systemic), there is no quick fix as changing the culture of a billion people is nearly impossible. I think the entire thing needs to come down and be rebuilt from scratch.

I agree with everything you wrote up to here. I'd have said the same thing until I moved to Taiwan. Now I'm not sure what to think

I live in Kaohsiung (pronounced gow-shung), Taiwan, which is relatively unknown but is actually the second biggest city in Taiwan after Taipei. It's the site of a 1979 protest named the Kaohsiung or Formosa Incident [1]

People were protesting martial law and seeking democracy. The other day I was talking to someone who was at that protest. He told me the feeling of the populace was that steps towards democracy must be made. Otherwise, people were going to start a revolution. 17 years later, in 1996, after a series of changes, Taiwan held its first direct election. Since then, a diverse cast of characters have been elected to the legislative body. Around 65-75% of the Taiwanese turn out to vote [2].

I feel Taiwan's warless entrance into democracy shows that governments can evolve without war. The BBC has a very succinct history of Taiwan that is pretty accurate if you're interested in learning more [3].

Taiwan is a very controversial subject, particularly to China, who claims ownership of it. Taiwan has its own government, holds elections, doesn't pay taxes to China, and you need a passport to go between TW and China.

There are a lot of differences between China and Taiwan so it's hard to predict what will happen in China. I am optimistic.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaohsiung_Incident

[2] http://www.idea.int/vt/countryview.cfm?CountryCode=TW

[3] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/asia_pac/04/taiwan_fla...

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#277

Post by studentrob »

TDL wrote: post #273
studentrob wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we (the global we) have way overvalued the piece of paper that we get upon graduation Well, that's subjective. It's meaningful to some people and not to others Schools aren't meant to be perfect. Reputation is meant to help people identify trustworthy parties more quickly. That doesn't mean you can't re-scrutinize a school or person yourself. It's simply one optional filter. Some people find this more useful than o…

I said we have overvalued the certifications/diplomas, not that they don't have value. I also never implied that schools were meant to be perfect. My point is that we have zeroed in on the certification/diploma too much and have begun (until recently) paying too much attention to whether the cert has been attained as opposed to what it is supposed to represent. The reason why I believe this happened is because it is…

> I also never implied that schools were meant to be perfect.

Yeah, you're right, sorry.

> we have zeroed in on the certification/diploma too much and have begun (until recently) paying too much attention to whether the cert has been attained as opposed to what it is supposed to represent

I can only speak for myself. For me this story is not just about the value of the piece of paper. It's the down-the-road effects that I find interesting. You may feel the plight of China or Chinese students does not affect you. I consider them part of my community. I live in Taiwan, which, while a separate country from China, often gets lumped together with China. I think many people could make a case for how this issue affects them, whether in school or the workplace, beyond just the value of their degree. When this happens at all schools, it becomes the value of our educational system.

> The reason why I believe this happened is because it is much easier to quantify a diploma or any other certification, "Oh you graduated! That must mean X."

Yup, that happens, for sure

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#278

Post by studentrob »

davidmr wrote: post #274
studentrob wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The brand and reputation of the universities are what allows them to charge so much for tuition and get prestigious faculty (i.e. grant money). The effects of this issue are not widely understood by the general public. The general public think this kind of thing doesn't hurt the quality of education in the US. We know better. Only we know because we all attended schools for science which are inundated with Chinese…

I'm not even sure where to start with this. I went to a fancypants-ish school in the University of Chicago which does not have a Harvard or Yale-sized endowment so they likely did care about tuition. We did indeed have a lot of Chinese undergrads and grad students. They were every bit as smart as anyone else there, so I doubt they were there because of their tuition money alone, but on their academic merits. Also, yo…

> Also, your extension of the argument about STEM grad students doesn't make much sense because STEM grad students almost never have to pay for school, or at least didn't at the UofC

At my grad department, 90 out of the 100 kids were Asian, and only 5 or so were PhD for that class year. The rest were MS and paying tuition.

> If you can fake your way through a Ph.D. physics program at a reputable university, you deserve the diploma.

Agreed :-D

> I'm having a hard time reading your comment as anything other than a statement that you wish there were less Chinese students at your school just because you don't want them there. Did I completely miss your point here?

Definitely !!! I graduated from my MS program 8 years ago. I live in Taiwan now and I love the Chinese culture and people. I don't like things that make it look bad. I admire Taiwan for its warless entrance into democracy and interesting history with China [1].

The bad parts of this story are ideas, not people. Ideas and people are separate. Hate the game, not the player. The idea that cheating is okay is one that can be criticized without attacking people for holding that idea. People face consequences for their actions. That does not make them bad people.

[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/asia_pac/04/taiwan_fla...

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#279

Post by Ivannahack »

chuckcode wrote: post #214
jchiu1106 wrote: post #133

As a former Chinese international student graduated from one of the top Canadian universities with distinction, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the toxic culture permeated the Chinese visa student community is definitely responsible for the high rate of cheating. Most Chinese visa students came to study in the west did not came to pursue academic excellence. They (and their parents most likely) see it…

I went to grad school with a lot of Chinese visa students. It was pretty clear about a week in who was the real deal (absolutely brilliant students) and who had worked the system to get into the school. The ones that had cheated their way in generally were generally just average folks who had taken what they viewed as their best option in a very high pressure and high stakes situation. I'm guessing most of my US rais…

One local public university suddenly had a 10% budget cut in funding from the state, to which their response was to stick thumbs in the dam: get more international students to pay the full tuition.

However, many smaller universities are very inexperienced with regulations governing I-20s, and outsource to services involved in getting Chinese students into American colleges. What is referred to in the article as companies that "help students contrive their entire college application" are more commonly referred to as recruiters. Recruiters get students in the door, often by any means necessary. They are often the only way for Chinese students to access info about American universities at all: blocked websites, inability to pay online, and a host of other problems guarantee that recruiters will continue to exit.

Another contracted service is transcript verification, also too expensive a resource to hire on campus and often outsourced to companies outside the USA. I've seen presenters at NAFSA on this topic, the difficulties translating degrees from one country to another, and hiring someone knowledgeable, authentic and with local connections is expensive. So many universities will again default to contracting out to---you guessed it---Chinese 'educational' groups that work with recruiters.

Finally there's what's commonly called an IEP (Intensive English Program), that gives out I-20s to 'study English' for a certain length of time. In desperation, universities co-opt IEP programs onto their campuses to test and assess student English levels once they're on campus to avoid the Chinese educational link. This often fails too. I know one IEP that was creative with the truth in order to cut through the DHS paperwork to issue IEPs, that never checked transcripts and paid kick backs to recruiters as well as administrators for every kid that got into college.

The recruiting industry is so corrupt that universities that care have a very short list of trusted recruiters. The shocking truth here is that many don't. I know of two students who ETS caught cheating on their TOEFL tests--the university accepted them based on this score. Sadly it was not a surprise to me that when the university was notified of the cheating by ETS, they did not rescind their admission to the school. Many unis would rather take the money and look the other way.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#280

Post by studentrob »

Ivannahack wrote: post #279
chuckcode wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to grad school with a lot of Chinese visa students. It was pretty clear about a week in who was the real deal (absolutely brilliant students) and who had worked the system to get into the school. The ones that had cheated their way in generally were generally just average folks who had taken what they viewed as their best option in a very high pressure and high stakes situation. I'm guessing most of my US rais…

One local public university suddenly had a 10% budget cut in funding from the state, to which their response was to stick thumbs in the dam: get more international students to pay the full tuition. However, many smaller universities are very inexperienced with regulations governing I-20s, and outsource to services involved in getting Chinese students into American colleges. What is referred to in the article as compa…

> I know of two students who ETS caught cheating on their TOEFL tests--the university accepted them based on this score. Sadly it was not a surprise to me that when the university was notified of the cheating by ETS, they did not rescind their admission to the school. Many unis would rather take the money and look the other way.

Yikes. I hope news like what happened at Iowa gives schools the kick in the butt they need to either (1) be more strict in who they accept or (2) provide some additional English training for these incoming kids who supposedly know English but really do not

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