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An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

reuters.com

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Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#201

Post by tremon »

johnloeber wrote: post #134
foobarian wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There used to be a section of Commonwealth Ave around Boston University known as a supercar parking lot, mostly driven by internationals. Cheating of the sort above was rampant. But I figured since they were paying full fare they were subsidizing us rubes so it was worth it. Ultimately college is about what you learn, not your classmates, and what happens after. I saw a couple of kids like this come through our "home…

> Ultimately college is about what you learn, not your classmates Some would beg to differ. The veracity of that statement is certainly variable depending on your field of study.

Society does not reward you for what you've learned though, they reward you solely on credentials.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#202

Post by gambiting »

pnathan wrote: post #154
jchiu1106 wrote: post #133

As a former Chinese international student graduated from one of the top Canadian universities with distinction, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the toxic culture permeated the Chinese visa student community is definitely responsible for the high rate of cheating. Most Chinese visa students came to study in the west did not came to pursue academic excellence. They (and their parents most likely) see it…

As a former grad student who has interacted with both the good and the bad of your group, I understand the differences... and regret the unfortunate realities. I remember a Chinese PhD student who could not function in spoken English . Nice guy. Always smiled, bobbed his head, and said "hi", and that was the extent of his verbal vocab. Still don't know how he got into an American graduate school. Really brings the de…

In my masters CS course we had 12 Chinese students, out of which only 1 did any work, the rest played LoL on university's computers, then when the time came to hand in work they all simply dropped out, they haven't had any notes, nothing. The remaining student said that to them, just coming to a foreign university is prestigious enough for when they go home, no one cares that they dropped out as long as they can also say they went. Obviously an anecdote, I met a lot of very hard working Chinese students too.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#204

Post by xenophonf »

bigtunacan wrote: post #114
abrookewood wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Australian, I can confirm that in some parts of the country this is probably true! Seriously, our elocution is nothing short of atrocious: we drop words, use frequent contractions and then just roll everything into one mumbling, rolling wall of noise. Witness "owzigoin?". Known in more respectable locations as "How are you doing?". FWIW I'm just as guilty as the rest.

As a USA native I can confirm that it is even simpler here. You can just say, "Sup?"

Us Chicagoans optimize that to "Yo!"

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#205

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

ken47 wrote: post #178
Snargorf wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-Chinese students also have those same problems, but they don't cheat like the Chinese. Chinese students cheat because cheating is part of Chinese culture. Go to China and you'll be shocked at how little people care about others in public, or society at large. This is a place where bystanders will watch cars swerve wildly around an open manhole cover over and over, nearly getting in accidents, doing nothing to hel…

I went to a privileged American school where cheating was not uncommon. I watched at least two students openly cheat their way into Ivy League colleges, whose rich parents ensured they were unscathed when they were caught. I watched students with inferior intellect, but superior connections, finesse their way into colleges beyond their pay grade. I sure as heck hope foreigners don't judge me based on their encounters…

>The 1900s are over.

I'm not sure claiming "it's $CurrentYear, why are we still thinking this way?" is a good argument.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#206

Post by IkmoIkmo »

qrendel wrote: post #54
s_baby wrote: post #27

The international students have unreasonably high standards for maintaining financial assistance and staying out of academic probation(3.5-3.8 at my university). By design college courses give work just a little beyond what a student can reasonably accomplish(with a "good" grade) and curve accordingly. These kids aren't just cheating they are marginalizing students who are honest or don't have this kind of social acc…

> If you're not part of a fraterntiy/sorority that archives coursework/tests of previous students or part of an international student in-group then you can easily fall through the cracks from this grade deflation effect. That is a huge problem for a lot of us more introverted types, especially if you're a transfer student from another school. I remember taking a bunch of classes where I didn't know anyone and had no…

Yeah I feel there's a massive disconnect between class lectures, the book, the exam, and exam-specific student material.

Which is to be expected. Over time, students will optimise material for the exam. Whereas the lectures often discuss things that you ought to learn, but that isn't tested for mostly practical reasons (some knowledge is hard to test, or would make the exam too long).

I've recently sat in a uni statistics course, about 2 weeks in 80% of students stopped coming to class because the professor just had no ability to teach. 1 on 1 he's brilliant, in academic writing he's brilliant, but he's not a teacher. However, students set up a $60 2-day course, everyone who took it passed. At least that's formalised and open, sent to all students' email. But a lot of that nowadays happens through whatsapp. For example I just got a math guidebook, practise exams and some other helpful stuff sent to me on whatsapp from a maths study group I'm taking, all of which is 10x more helpful than the official book used in class or the lectures. But that's only because I got invited into the group by a friend.

I've also studied abroad multiple times and it's a world of difference without these connections. Mainly because exam difficulty has adjusted to students having 'prime' material allowing them to do well, meaning if you don't have it and just follow lectures or the prescribed materials, you're going to have a hard time even scoring above average when you put in tons of effort.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#207

Post by fsloth »

sotojuan wrote: post #58
qrendel wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're not part of a fraterntiy/sorority that archives coursework/tests of previous students or part of an international student in-group then you can easily fall through the cracks from this grade deflation effect. That is a huge problem for a lot of us more introverted types, especially if you're a transfer student from another school. I remember taking a bunch of classes where I didn't know anyone and had no…

Even worse is when people with connections get interviews or jobs based solely on knowing people who can recommend them. At least in programming we have GitHub/Twitter/meetups to help with that (worked great for me).

It's called having a good reputation.

You do realize this is the best way to get a job? And also, commonly thought as the best way to find new high quality employees so that when your old colleagues boss

It's not some secret fraternity. All you need to do is to do a good job and not be an asshole, so that when your old colleagues boss asks, does he know any candidates for a new position he remembers to mention you.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#208

Post by IkmoIkmo »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #50
hoodoof wrote: post #13

I know its naive but I find it really hard to understand why people value the piece of paper more than the knowledge. The good news is that you can't cheat as a software developer. Or maybe you can? Depressing thought.

I valued my degree's paper more than the content. The content was largely bullshit. Who needs to learn astronomy for a business degree? Employers don't give a shit if I know about astronomy, why should I care? It's required, however, so I took it. I did the minimum to get a 4.0 and nothing more. I think space is interesting and I read about it in my free time, but memorizing facts and figures about random things isn'…

Wait what, you had to take astronomy in uni to get a business degree?

Could you elaborate, maybe point me to the program? I've never heard of anything like this.

(although I do know other ridiculous examples, don't laugh but I know people who had PE in a uni business degree. team building competencies and all that crap haha)

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#209

Post by mahranch »

andrey_utkin wrote: post #203

Have seen at last one Chinese guy's profile on Upwork having some test passed with maximum score, completed within ~5 minutes (while the time for a test is usually ~40 minutes).

This is something that isn't just unique to higher education in the U.S, it's pretty much standard practice back in China as well. It's all about rote memorization & tests. What you can't memorize, you find a way to cheat through. You can't cheat? Then buy off your professor or teacher. Bribing educators in China is the quickest and easiest way to pass. Practically no creative learning takes place in China.

This is interesting to me because it's something that's inherent to China's culture. It persists passed the education stage of their life, well into adulthood. And that's a terrible shame because it sets up China for failure.

Without actually learning/understanding the material (and learning to think critically), the general populace isn't equipped and stands no chance when it comes to future innovations. The foundation for future technological innovation (in any industry) simply isn't there. Their country has always been a few steps behind, and keeps falling further and further behind as the decades pass. There are no new big innovations coming out of China, they've only been able to hold their own (if you can call it that) by buying, copying or stealing technology from other countries, entities or businesses. The problem is, China's targets have wised up over the years, so future IP/technology theft will be much, much harder if not impossible.

Unfortunately, I think because this has its roots in China's culture (systemic), there is no quick fix as changing the culture of a billion people is nearly impossible. I think the entire thing needs to come down and be rebuilt from scratch.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#210

Post by e40 »

jchiu1106 wrote: post #133

As a former Chinese international student graduated from one of the top Canadian universities with distinction, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the toxic culture permeated the Chinese visa student community is definitely responsible for the high rate of cheating. Most Chinese visa students came to study in the west did not came to pursue academic excellence. They (and their parents most likely) see it…

You admit there is a high rate of cheating but then say it's unfair to call it out. I hope you see the contradiction there.
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