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An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

reuters.com

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Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#111

Post by ngoldbaum »

nilkn wrote: post #94
qrendel wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're not part of a fraterntiy/sorority that archives coursework/tests of previous students or part of an international student in-group then you can easily fall through the cracks from this grade deflation effect. That is a huge problem for a lot of us more introverted types, especially if you're a transfer student from another school. I remember taking a bunch of classes where I didn't know anyone and had no…

> I'd come in and the entire rest of the class would be sitting around sharing their homework answers, copying each other on the ones they couldn't figure out, getting help from each other... This is actually one of the reasons I frequently avoided study groups for many of my math classes in college. There was too much of an emphasis on just getting the answers from each other, which meant you might get a decent scor…

That sounds like a bad experience with that study group. I found I wasn't really successful as an undergrad until I started to do problem sets with other students. It also really helped to explain problems to others - you don't really understand something until you can explain it to someone else.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#112

Post by seanmcdirmid »

sotojuan wrote: post #70
jdavis703 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 3.5 is easy. I got a a 3.82 at my school of engineering, while working, and commuting for about 4 hours per day. I didn't really even try that hard in school.

This comment doesn't really add anything to the discussion especially because colleges have different grading scales and culture of grade inflation or deflation. For example in mine most GPAs hovered around 3.5. A 3.8 would be rare.

Grade inflation is a problem for many state American universities, at least. Havard also is a private university where grade inflation has been highlighted as a real problem. See:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2013/12/...

I haven't heard of any universities recently where the problem is instead grade deflation, any links to share?

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#113

Post by whatshisface »

darawk wrote: post #57
mrep wrote: post #53

I went to a public university with a large international population and this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. A lot of the international students were extremely poor at english. One of the guys on my software project team was an international student who confirmed that it was very easy to pay someone to take the english proficiency exam. Us Americans aren't so innocent though. The amount of adderall/vyvanse/rita…

To be fair, there is a difference between adderall and actual cheating. One of these is a thing that helps you do your own work better, and the other is hiring someone else to do your work for you. One of these things is fraudulent, and the other is simply performance enhancement. Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question, whereas cheating your way through tests does.

>"Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question"

What happens when you stop taking it?

We frown upon doping in school for the same reason we frown upon it in sports. It creates an environment where people are forced to deal with the side effects to compete, or receive a lower grade.

Employers will expect that you continue your performance outside of school. If you stop doping after school, your employer will notice the new correlation between GPA and performance - hurting those with legitimate work ethic and skill. If you don't stop doping, you will start to experience some serious health issues.

(Even if employers don't think that GPA matters, so long as any significant number hire based on it the zero-sum fault will persist.)

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#114

Post by bigtunacan »

abrookewood wrote: post #105
howlingfantods wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not about cheating, but my friend runs a education consulting service in China and he recently got a call from a father saying that his 20 year old daughter was in the USA studying English but found it too difficult. The father wanted to know if my friend could help his daughter transfer to a school in a country speaking easier English, like Australia. He and his daughter apparently thought Australia spoke some sort…

As an Australian, I can confirm that in some parts of the country this is probably true! Seriously, our elocution is nothing short of atrocious: we drop words, use frequent contractions and then just roll everything into one mumbling, rolling wall of noise. Witness "owzigoin?". Known in more respectable locations as "How are you doing?". FWIW I'm just as guilty as the rest.

As a USA native I can confirm that it is even simpler here. You can just say, "Sup?"

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#115

Post by thisrod »

netheril96 wrote: post #74
msie wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The professor should be held responsible for letting the cheaters get away with it. Not that hard to find cheaters in a programming class if he/she cared.

More likely scenario is that the professors have been told by the school to turn a blind eye.

No.

The university administrators tell the faculty that cheating is a really big deal, that they take very seriously. They will not tolerate it, and will severely punish any student they catch cheating.

Of course, it is essential that the university treats students fairly when they are under such terrible suspicion. Therefore, any complaint of cheating should be made on the approved 15 page form, handwritten in quadruplicate, and submitted for the Vice-Chancellor to consider in her copious free time.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#116

Post by tomkat0789 »

s_baby wrote: post #27

The international students have unreasonably high standards for maintaining financial assistance and staying out of academic probation(3.5-3.8 at my university). By design college courses give work just a little beyond what a student can reasonably accomplish(with a "good" grade) and curve accordingly. These kids aren't just cheating they are marginalizing students who are honest or don't have this kind of social acc…

>If you're not part of a fraterntiy/sorority that archives coursework/tests of previous students or part of an international student in-group then you can easily fall through the cracks from this grade deflation effect.

+1 I saw this going on at my highly ranked university. After many B's, my self-esteem got a boost senior year when I finally took a newly required course with a new professor where there were no old tests to study and got an A.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#117

Post by ams6110 »

tdeck wrote: post #89
mrep wrote: post #53

I went to a public university with a large international population and this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. A lot of the international students were extremely poor at english. One of the guys on my software project team was an international student who confirmed that it was very easy to pay someone to take the english proficiency exam. Us Americans aren't so innocent though. The amount of adderall/vyvanse/rita…

These types of discussions always depress me. You'd think from reading them that everyone has cheated or popped some Adderall at some point, and it's a normal part of college. Is that really true? I never have, unless you count making up excuses for turning in the occasional thing late. I worked hard in school and got decent but not amazing grades (3.7 something). When I hear this shit it makes me feel like I was pla…

Cheaters definitely rationalize. I myself never had anyone else sit exams for me, nor used anyone else's work as my own, nor copied homework answers. I think cheating is common but there are definitely people who don't do it. You just don't hear much about them.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#118

Post by vibrato »

whatshisface wrote: post #113
darawk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, there is a difference between adderall and actual cheating. One of these is a thing that helps you do your own work better, and the other is hiring someone else to do your work for you. One of these things is fraudulent, and the other is simply performance enhancement. Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question, whereas cheating your way through tests does.

>"Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question" What happens when you stop taking it? We frown upon doping in school for the same reason we frown upon it in sports. It creates an environment where people are forced to deal with the side effects to compete, or receive a lower grade. Employers will expect that you continue your performance outside of school. If you stop doping aft…

what correlation between GPA and performance? Has one ever been found?

Google has not found one. http://www.businessinsider.com/how-google-hires-people-2013-...

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#119

Post by ams6110 »

rhizome wrote: post #37
kyebosh wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience it has been declining in importance. In the past I'd see jobs advertised asking little more than a degree (or equiv. industry experience). Today I still see degrees listed, but often as "preferred" & always amongst a litany of other skill-based requirements. Seems to be that there's at least some commercial pressure to value the "piece of paper" less. Of course it could also be that a degree is now t…

In the US it's illegal to require a degree for almost all postitions that people around here are concerned with. Companies always try to elide this, but bizdev, marketing, programming, sysadminning, sales, and starting a company are not classified as the kinds of skilled positions for which a diploma can be required, such as engineering, finance, architecture, law, medicine, etc. I don't know if this maps perfectly t…

Illegal? Most employment in the US is at-will. You can hire or fire for any reason or none at all, as long as you're not selecting based on race, sex, religion, etc.

Where is it illegal to require a degree in Marketing for a job in Marketing?

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#120

Post by sheepmullet »

paradite wrote: post #104

One common mistake made by westerners is treating lack in language proficiency as low competency in work or study. Native English speakers take for granted the ability to speak English fluently but do not realize it takes years to master spoken English as a non-native speaker. Although this is tangential to the issue being discussed here, but you can see this mistake appearing in lots of comments here.

Because it is a good indicator when studying in an English speaking country.

If you can't understand the lecturer, the tutor, the homework, the assignments, the exams, the study material, other students etc, then you are incredibly unlikely to be learning a whole lot.

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