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An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

reuters.com

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Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#261

Post by Afton »

CardenB wrote: post #21
Afton wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've taught university classes, and failed students on the class for cheating. But it's true that I haven't seen anyone kicked out of a program or a university for cheating.

And thank God. As someone who has been unfairly punished for cheating, I appreciate this fact.

This is a general problem with any punitive measure. There will be some false positives (unfair punishments).

I actually do know someone who was not able to get a CS degree because of 'cheating'. His story was that he was working in a group, got verbal clearance from his professor that this kind of collaboration was acceptable, and when that auto-cheating-analysis tool flagged each group members work, the professor claimed not to have said that and was uninterested in fixing the problem.

So, this absolutely does happen. OTOH, I've never personally had any experience with 'borderline' cases. There were enough cut-and-dried cases to keep me busy.

I'm sorry you were unfairly punished.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#262

Post by lolc »

abrookewood wrote: post #105
howlingfantods wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not about cheating, but my friend runs a education consulting service in China and he recently got a call from a father saying that his 20 year old daughter was in the USA studying English but found it too difficult. The father wanted to know if my friend could help his daughter transfer to a school in a country speaking easier English, like Australia. He and his daughter apparently thought Australia spoke some sort…

As an Australian, I can confirm that in some parts of the country this is probably true! Seriously, our elocution is nothing short of atrocious: we drop words, use frequent contractions and then just roll everything into one mumbling, rolling wall of noise. Witness "owzigoin?". Known in more respectable locations as "How are you doing?". FWIW I'm just as guilty as the rest.

Go consult your linguist about that guilty feeling, you'll feel better afterwards :-)

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#263

Post by studentrob »

golergka wrote: post #212
e40 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You admit there is a high rate of cheating but then say it's unfair to call it out. I hope you see the contradiction there.

This comment displays a misunderstanding of common logic that so commonly leads people to racist views. There's a logical difference between saying "a lot of chinese students are cheaters" and "chinese student is most likely a cheater". While statistically speaking these propositions seem to be equal, notice that we are not 100% sure here — we're talking in probabilities. But talking in probabilities has two importan…

> There's a logical difference between saying "a lot of chinese students are cheaters" and "chinese student is most likely a cheater".

Where does the article say Chinese students are most likely cheaters?? I've see this claim repeated multiple times in this thread. Nobody can point out where that is mentioned.

If you could rewrite the article, how would you rewrite it? Would you mention the Chinese at all or just claim that this particular business, Fanyi Translation [1] [2], is helping students cheat, and not mention that they cater to Chinese speakers?

> And second thing is that modern morality is based on assumption of best in people

That's a great attitude and I hope more people can embrace it. Let's begin by fostering trust and call a spade a spade. The article is talking about facts that happened. Students cheated. The article is not saying that the cheaters are bad people. In fact, it says the opposite and demonstrates an understanding of the students.

The article acknowledges that the students know they broke the rules and wish to move on. End of story. The implication for the rest of us is that this doesn't just happen in Iowa, and this thread is a discussion about how to help students, schools and government identify problems and issue corrections for the benefit of all parties. There is nothing wrong with openly talking about an existing problem.

If you are offended by that, I can't help you. This is the way we solve problems in America.

[1] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&...

[2] http://archive.is/XNZD1

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#264

Post by marshray »

douche wrote: post #247
rtpg wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus, since Adderall and the like are in limited supply, you're preventing people who actually need it to function from getting the access they need.

It's absurdly easy to get diagnosed with ADHD/ADD and get an Adderall or equivalent prescription. I don't think the pharmaceutical companies have any qualms about producing more supply, if there is demand for it.

No, production is limited by the US Drug Enforcement Agency:

http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/670035.pdf

"As part of its work to prevent diversion of controlled substances, DEA sets limits, known as quotas, on the amount of certain classes of controlled substances available for use in the United States"

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#265

Post by TheCowboy »

TheCowboy wrote: post #246
sevensor wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to teach at a community college which attracted a lot of Chinese students. I found that for the most part they legitimately wanted to learn the subject I was teaching, but that the language barrier was a problem for many. They would sit in the back and the student with the best comprehension would quietly translate for the rest. When it came to assignments, they did their own work as far as I could tell. So wh…

I figured I'd add my anecdotal experience from the perspective of a student, having been to college before and after every answer was online. My experiences are mostly interacting with non-international students as well. As far as cheating on homework, I feel like it is quite common to just look up answers online, and many people are quite open about doing so. It comes in different forms. There is what I consider "so…

I got downvoted and can't edit my response, but wanted to add that I'm not endorsing or advocating cheating, or trying to paint anyone as inherently dishonest. I just think the system will have to adapt to the new reality, and should acknowledge that this info is widely available.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#266

Post by sevensor »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #245
sevensor wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to teach at a community college which attracted a lot of Chinese students. I found that for the most part they legitimately wanted to learn the subject I was teaching, but that the language barrier was a problem for many. They would sit in the back and the student with the best comprehension would quietly translate for the rest. When it came to assignments, they did their own work as far as I could tell. So wh…

>so we're deliberately importing students who aren't Except most, if not all, of these universities have strict English requirements and fluency testing. If they're cheating to get past those, which is a known issue, why are you indicting the US educational system? How can you stop English fluency cheating when the students don't see anything wrong with it? Perceiving them as the victim at this point is ridiculous.

They're playing the system, and the system is playing them. Everybody loses, and neither party is innocent. In the short term, the people who pay the most disproportionate price are the honest students, especially the many honest Chinese students who aren't involved in cheating. In the long run, we in the U.S. will have to face the music for over-pricing and devaluing the university experience, and China will have to reckon with the fact that many of its expensively Western-educated professionals have no skills other than fraud.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#267

Post by studentrob »

TDL wrote: post #240

Reading some of the comments here makes it clear that we (the global we) have way overvalued the piece of paper that we get upon graduation and have largely ignored the process, habits, & knowledge that said piece of paper once stood for. The problem with all these developing nations & cheating isn't one of moral failing, but the fact that a cred is valued more than what the cred is supposed to stand for. I would arg…

> we (the global we) have way overvalued the piece of paper that we get upon graduation

Well, that's subjective. It's meaningful to some people and not to others

Schools aren't meant to be perfect. Reputation is meant to help people identify trustworthy parties more quickly. That doesn't mean you can't re-scrutinize a school or person yourself. It's simply one optional filter. Some people find this more useful than others.

If you don't want to pay attention to certificates, that's your choice. People who attended these institutions may care and it's their right to defend their degree from dilution if they wish.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#268

Post by drzaiusapelord »

sevensor wrote: post #266
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so we're deliberately importing students who aren't Except most, if not all, of these universities have strict English requirements and fluency testing. If they're cheating to get past those, which is a known issue, why are you indicting the US educational system? How can you stop English fluency cheating when the students don't see anything wrong with it? Perceiving them as the victim at this point is ridiculous.

They're playing the system, and the system is playing them. Everybody loses, and neither party is innocent. In the short term, the people who pay the most disproportionate price are the honest students, especially the many honest Chinese students who aren't involved in cheating. In the long run, we in the U.S. will have to face the music for over-pricing and devaluing the university experience, and China will have to…

Just because I sell an expensive product doesn't give you the right to rip me off nor does it make me guilty of anything. I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. No one is pointing a gun at these kids to come to the states and commit fraud.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#269

Post by studentrob »

eli173 wrote: post #196
xviia wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would this be done? What kind of language, etc. would enable this?

I decided to try it. https://gist.github.com/eli173/c089c27db9c1302fe4e003716b402... Perhaps I am the kind of person they are trying to avoid, but I did this in a bit less than an hour. I am very ignorant of the Python library ecosystem, so if I had known the request library better and if I knew an html parsing library, I may have been able to complete this in the time limit. I also suspect there are a few cases whic…

> if I knew an html parsing library

Beautiful soup https://pypi.python.org/pypi/beautifulsoup4

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#270

Post by pnathan »

Nokinside wrote: post #200
pnathan wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former grad student who has interacted with both the good and the bad of your group, I understand the differences... and regret the unfortunate realities. I remember a Chinese PhD student who could not function in spoken English . Nice guy. Always smiled, bobbed his head, and said "hi", and that was the extent of his verbal vocab. Still don't know how he got into an American graduate school. Really brings the de…

I attended a conference where young Chinese PhD was giving presentation and nobody could understand what he was saying. Finally one of the organizing professors interrupted him and requested that he should speak English. "But I'm speaking English." he replied with desperation in his voice. He knew his stuff and could write and read English well, but it was very hard to understand what he was saying.

> He knew his stuff and could write and read English well,

Right, I really don't have any way to assess that of a grad student I meet in the halls if they can't speak to me. They may be brilliant, they may be the best student there, and be totally walled off from everyone who doesn't speak their native tongue. I feel bad for them... but I don't think they should be in a grad school where English is the lingua franca.

I would vastly prefer "adequate English proficiency" be a hard criteria for attending a US graduate school. Not only are grad students part of a cohort themselves, they often are TAs and provide assistance and guidance to undergraduates. English adequacy is generally the de facto requirement to adequately assist others who are in college (in the US).

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