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An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

reuters.com

211–220 of 333 posts

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#211
post #54
post #27

The international students have unreasonably high standards for maintaining financial assistance and staying out of academic probation(3.5-3.8 at my university). By design college courses give work just a little beyond what a student can reasonably accomplish(with a "good" grade) and curve accordingly. These kids aren't just cheating they are marginalizing students who are honest or don't have this kind of social acc…

> If you're not part of a fraterntiy/sorority that archives coursework/tests of previous students or part of an international student in-group then you can easily fall through the cracks from this grade deflation effect. That is a huge problem for a lot of us more introverted types, especially if you're a transfer student from another school. I remember taking a bunch of classes where I didn't know anyone and had no…

>I'd come in and the entire rest of the class would be sitting around sharing their homework answers, copying each other on the ones they couldn't figure out, getting help from each other...

And I'd say you are luckier that you didn't have access to this.

When I was in university, I did my own homework.[1]

I specifically didn't want any help from anyone because I wanted to see how I measured up against other students and the material.

I took chances with my answers. If the problem set included a hint, I tried using the hint privately, but then worked hard at finding a novel answer that didn't use the hint.

This, in my opinion is a real education. Education isn't something the school gives you, it's something you pursue yourself.

And BTW, my grades suffered as a result of this 'passion' for the material, but I don't believe my prospects after school did. If anything I think they were improved.

[1] I don't know what it is these days, with everyone doing their homework together. Is that a millennial thing? Perhaps high schools switched to over-emphasizing group work?

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#212
post #210

As a former Chinese international student graduated from one of the top Canadian universities with distinction, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the toxic culture permeated the Chinese visa student community is definitely responsible for the high rate of cheating. Most Chinese visa students came to study in the west did not came to pursue academic excellence. They (and their parents most likely) see it…

You admit there is a high rate of cheating but then say it's unfair to call it out. I hope you see the contradiction there.

This comment displays a misunderstanding of common logic that so commonly leads people to racist views.

There's a logical difference between saying "a lot of chinese students are cheaters" and "chinese student is most likely a cheater". While statistically speaking these propositions seem to be equal, notice that we are not 100% sure here — we're talking in probabilities.

But talking in probabilities has two important implications. First, human brains are not wired up to work with probabilities probably: so, when you hear a statement "chinese student is likely to be a cheater", next time you see a chinese student, you will see a cheater. Not a 80% probability cheater, just a cheater.

And second thing is that modern morality is based on assumption of best in people — presumption of innocence in law is just one example of that. And this norm have worked really well, in general. When we know that someone is 'bad' only with 80% certainty, we prefer to act as if he's good — for a variety of reasons too complicated to discuss here. Let's just say that in general, it's good for everyone.

So, in the end, answering your point: it's not "unfair to call it out". It's just bad to make all chinese students look bad and create pre-conceptions about them.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raised a valid point. I agree that the level of English proficiency would have an impact on the effectiveness of learning. However my main point is that the poor command of language should not be confused with poor knowledge on the subject domain. For example, a PhD student who just arrived at US may not be able to communicate well enough in English to articulate his/her thoughts, but that by no means is an indic…

> a PhD student who just arrived at US may not be able to communicate well enough in English to articulate his/her thoughts, but that by no means is an indicator that the person has poor knowledge on his main research topic. I don't see any part of the article that makes that assumption. If you don't understand the test, there's no way to verify if you know the subject matter being tested. Cheating is cheating Chines…

There are a billion Chinese, so I wouldn't blame them for not learning English while living in China. It's just not worth the effort.

Also the fact that Chinese is almost as far as you can get from any western European language makes it really hard to learn English (or for us to learn Chinese for that matter.)

I can't imagine the Chinese government encouraging its citizens to lean English for political reasons either.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#214

As a former Chinese international student graduated from one of the top Canadian universities with distinction, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the toxic culture permeated the Chinese visa student community is definitely responsible for the high rate of cheating. Most Chinese visa students came to study in the west did not came to pursue academic excellence. They (and their parents most likely) see it…

I went to grad school with a lot of Chinese visa students. It was pretty clear about a week in who was the real deal (absolutely brilliant students) and who had worked the system to get into the school. The ones that had cheated their way in generally were generally just average folks who had taken what they viewed as their best option in a very high pressure and high stakes situation. I'm guessing most of my US raised classmates would have made the same decisions in same situations and certainly fair bit of them cheated although usually in less dramatic fashion.

The part that is surprising to me is that schools aren't doing much to prevent this. Studies show us when humans are likely to cheat and probability of getting caught is at the top of the list [1]. How universities and colleges can raise tuition an average of 8% a year and get away without doing a minimum of due diligence around cheating is beyond me. Simple things like some certified system for transcripts, letters of recommendation and teachers who ID/recognize their students would be a huge step to resolving these issues. At my grad school the only change was to make foreign students take the TOEFL[3] upon arrival which solved their big problem of english skills as graduate students are supposed to be teaching assistants in undergrad classes.

[1] http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/inside-the-cheaters-m... [2] http://www.finaid.org/savings/tuition-inflation.phtml [3] https://www.ets.org/toefl

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#215
"a vibrant East Asian industry "? There were 30 students out of a student population of 30,000 that used this service. That comes to, what, 0.1 percent? How many of the other 49,970 students hedged their bets in other shady ways (sharing papers, duplicating homework, covering one another for labs)? This is not a situation limited to those unscrupulous foreigners. The whole article smacks of nationalism.

I know, its pretty cynical to have a business dedicated to systemized cheating. But how is that different from sororities and frats that make available (and sell) last years notes/exams? That's often a thriving cottage industry.

Caveat: I went to Iowa. I was in the Engineering program, which was 50% foreign students (99% of the graduate students) back then. These were some of the hardest-working, smartest scholars I have ever met.

I don't think there's anything new to learn in this article.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#216

As a former Chinese international student graduated from one of the top Canadian universities with distinction, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, the toxic culture permeated the Chinese visa student community is definitely responsible for the high rate of cheating. Most Chinese visa students came to study in the west did not came to pursue academic excellence. They (and their parents most likely) see it…

I went to grad school with a lot of Chinese visa students. It was pretty clear about a week in who was the real deal (absolutely brilliant students) and who had worked the system to get into the school. The ones that had cheated their way in generally were generally just average folks who had taken what they viewed as their best option in a very high pressure and high stakes situation. I'm guessing most of my US rais…

> How universities and colleges can raise tuition an average of 8% a year and get away without doing a minimum of due diligence around cheating is beyond me.

Why would they? The students and their parents aren't paying for hard (which includes catching cheaters). They're paying for the degree. If college was harder the perceived ROI* would be less.

As far as I can tell colleges are happy if the students keep showing up paying real live money-dollars, regardless of if they learn or cheat or even have to do work.

* Individuals might feel like they are getting a good deal, but in the aggregate, most college degrees are essentially worthless now, I suspect because college is way too easy so a degree is a signal for almost nothing.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#217
In the past, only the brightest and best Chinese students could come to US, mostly by scholarship for their master/PhD, most of them stayed after the study.

These days, the majority students from China are those ordinary kids(or even worse) with a rich dad, most of them are the only child in the family which was likely spoiled, these combined produced a quality issue, so we're seeing them on the news, that they cheat, they committed crimes, they do drugs,etc.

In the meantime, many universities are in need of cash, which is another reason in the mix.

So all in all, it's all about money, one needs that, another one has that but not much more than that, thus all kinds of related issues.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely scenario is that the professors have been told by the school to turn a blind eye.

Professors aren't what they used to be. Many schools have dramatically reduced the number of tenured faculty. They the newer folks young and dumb, and they cannot fight the administration like faculty did in years past.

It's extremely unfair to characterize them as "dumb". They have the same credentials as the tenured faculty did when they start, but they don't have tenure.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#219
post #89
post #53

I went to a public university with a large international population and this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. A lot of the international students were extremely poor at english. One of the guys on my software project team was an international student who confirmed that it was very easy to pay someone to take the english proficiency exam. Us Americans aren't so innocent though. The amount of adderall/vyvanse/rita…

These types of discussions always depress me. You'd think from reading them that everyone has cheated or popped some Adderall at some point, and it's a normal part of college. Is that really true? I never have, unless you count making up excuses for turning in the occasional thing late. I worked hard in school and got decent but not amazing grades (3.7 something). When I hear this shit it makes me feel like I was pla…

When I went to college, I saw smart people who not only studied insanely hard, but ALSO took adderall AND cheated just to stomp out the competition. I saw a few friends end up in the hospital, but they had no regrets.

Re: An industry that helps Chinese cheat their way into and through US colleges

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a PhD student who just arrived at US may not be able to communicate well enough in English to articulate his/her thoughts, but that by no means is an indicator that the person has poor knowledge on his main research topic. I don't see any part of the article that makes that assumption. If you don't understand the test, there's no way to verify if you know the subject matter being tested. Cheating is cheating Chines…

There are a billion Chinese, so I wouldn't blame them for not learning English while living in China. It's just not worth the effort. Also the fact that Chinese is almost as far as you can get from any western European language makes it really hard to learn English (or for us to learn Chinese for that matter.) I can't imagine the Chinese government encouraging its citizens to lean English for political reasons either…

> There are a billion Chinese, so I wouldn't blame them for not learning English while living in China. It's just not worth the effort.

I don't blame them. For the ones who get accepted to US institutions, it's definitely worth it.

> Also the fact that Chinese is almost as far as you can get from any western European language makes it really hard to learn English (or for us to learn Chinese for that matter.)

Well I definitely disagree there. I'm studying Chinese. The characters are hard and that's it. Chinese grammar is super simple. There are no tenses or subject verb agreement so verb conjugation is not a concern. After you learn the basic grammar, Chinese is just about memorizing lots of vocab.

> I can't imagine the Chinese government encouraging its citizens to lean English for political reasons either.

They can do what they want but I believe most countries these days appreciate that globalization is inevitable and that learning other languages helps assuage the burden of embracing that. China doesn't want to go back to its cultural revolution experiment and the world needs China.

China has some really interesting geography that most westerners will never see. That could change in the future with more people from each culture learning other languages. Chinese are already touring the world. When will China itself begin to become easier for the world to tour it?

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