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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#321

Post by walrus01 »

patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

you know the flash animation video that goes "badger badger badger badger badger"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI

well, think like that, except;

lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer

mushroom, mushroom

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#322

Post by bradleyjg »

tptacek wrote: post #228
harryh wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add on a bit more you are probably right about "b) terminate the offending employee for cause" but before you do that you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations. If you just fire him before doing that you are likely opening yourself up to a lawsuit for wrongful termination. Yet again, this is something that a lawyer will help you handle correctly.

This is the second comment on the thread I've seen invoking "wrongful termination". By all means, get your lawyer to confirm this fact for you, but: assuming you had the bare minimum competent legal assistance in setting up your company and its hiring documents, there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. In particular: if it is lawful for you to fire someone at all, it is probably no less l…

I didn't take any employment law classes in law school, and never practiced in that area, so take it for what it's worth.

The thing that would set my potential liability antenna up is the "just hired" part. I have the vague recollection that there are some cases where courts have awarded damages in situations where someone is offered a job, quits current his job, moves across the country, etc., and then has the offer rescinded or is almost immediately let go. Good faith might well cure any potential problems, but if it were me I wouldn't be 100% confident just because I knew I was in a generally at-will state.

Also, in response to something that came up further down the chain: at issue in a for cause / not for cause firing decision is eligibility for unemployment. When an employee collects unemployment it impacts the rates the employer pays going forward.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#323

Post by gkya »

gommm wrote: post #270
joering2 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, but where was it? Also, Milf can be sexual harassment. Sure. So can be telling someone "you look nice". I worked with someone that was bashed by HR by telling a co-worker "I like your new haircut". I didn't see it as SH. It depends on point of view.

There's a clear difference between "I like your new haircut" which I agree is not sexual harassment and MILF: Mother I'd Like to Fuck (which is just slightly above calling your coworker slut). The second sentence is sexual harassment.

We don't know if the mentioned person's mother tongue is English. They may well not know that MILF is mother I like to f*ck. I'm from a non English speaking country and I can say that I haven't met anybody who'd know that. I myself didn't know that until I read a Wikipedia article. The OP should first try to see if this is the case, otherwise fire them. Some are bad at flirting, and sometimes you say silly things. We shouldn't be this generous at calling everything sexual harassment.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#324

Post by danielrhodes »

logfromblammo wrote: post #280
tptacek wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "wrongful termination" suit are you referring to? Please be as specific as you can.

That's the lawsuit brought by the person who gets fired, which requires the corporate lawyer to submit at least a brief and motion for dismissal, if not an actual answer to the claims. People occasionally do sue their former employers when they believe they have been wronged in some way. If you fire someone for sexual harassment when no such thing occurred, the ex-employee might sue for no other reason than to get a…

Couldn't the company fire without cause to avoid the potential wrongful termination lawsuits? Or would the company remain exposed to a sexual harassment suit as they couldn't prove they did something as a direct result of the incident.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#325

Post by Sharlin »

emodendroket wrote: post #293
ownagefool wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? If he's _just_ hired him, I presume any probationary period would be ongoing and you can let the guy go consequence free? Thus, the most obvious least path of resistance is just to let him go and not really give him cause. I'm not from the US, thus I'm genuinely asking the question. With that said, aren't we potentially overreacting here? Quite a lot of romances spark in the office. The guys tried it on, he's…

Probationary periods are basically fictional unless you've laid out some formalized termination process.

Perhaps fictional in the US. They are very much legal fact in (most of?) Europe where at-will employment isn't really a thing.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#326

Post by zepto »

econner wrote: post #187
Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

Why will firing him worsen the problem? I would fire this guy immediately. > Men and women need to learn to interact at work. Men should not need sensitivity training to interact with women at work.

> Men should not need sensitivity training to interact with women at work.

Sexism should already be over, but it isn't, and is more complicated than people who think they are not sexist declaring zero tolerance policies.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#327

Post by tptacek »

bradleyjg wrote: post #322
tptacek wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the second comment on the thread I've seen invoking "wrongful termination". By all means, get your lawyer to confirm this fact for you, but: assuming you had the bare minimum competent legal assistance in setting up your company and its hiring documents, there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. In particular: if it is lawful for you to fire someone at all, it is probably no less l…

I didn't take any employment law classes in law school, and never practiced in that area, so take it for what it's worth. The thing that would set my potential liability antenna up is the "just hired" part. I have the vague recollection that there are some cases where courts have awarded damages in situations where someone is offered a job, quits current his job, moves across the country, etc., and then has the offer…

Oh, good point, re unemployment.

(Again: I think "for cause" is taking the drama a step too far).

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#328

Post by phamilton »

tptacek wrote: post #271
harryh wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're pretty much on the same page here tbh. As I also was told, and believe, that being careful about the words "for cause" is almost always the right thing to do. I think it's pretty much only this series of steps that can get you into trouble: 1) Employee A claims that Employee B harassed them 2) Company doesn't put in any effort to hear Employee B's side of the story 3) Employee B is fired "for cause" for…

I know we're going on and on here, and I want to say that I generally enjoy your comments and am not just trying to be the picky message board jerk I normally am. However: It is very unlikely that a competent hiring practice will generate implied contracts for severance pay. Employees are not generally entitled to severance. Awarding severance to one employee probably doesn't create an implied contract with other emp…

I'm curious about a later lawsuit from the harassed employee. Does firing "for cause" provide documentation that you did indeed address the harassment problem, whereas firing because "at will" could be unrelated?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#329

Post by tptacek »

maxcan wrote: post #289
falcolas wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." Not in my experience, and it's not the law (as taught in the myriad of training courses I've endured over the years). The man should have an opportunity to learn from this mistake, then be fired when he proves incapable of learning. Providing the warning and training is enough to legally cover the company's ass if the guy screws u…

Its a shame to see how aggressively this is being down-voted. All you're saying is to take a step back and try to improve the behavior before firing the guy. Face to face dialogue, communication, etc etc is much more likely to prevent this in the future. Just firing him is kicking the can down the road to the next company.

So, instead, you pick up the can, and have a stern talk with the guy, have him sign some paperwork, and move on. Later, the guy makes untoward comments to someone on a PIP. You don't find out he did this until after you terminate the PIP person, and they sue you. Right in the middle of your next fundraising effort.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#330

Post by orionblastar »

Yeah talk to a lawyer first, listen to all of the people that say talk to a lawyer.

Actually it is up to her to file a complaint with you or HR. If she does not want to file a complaint, just add it to the employee's annual review that he used inappropriate words with another employee. If he is still on probation as a new employee it could violate that probation and you could fire him for that.

You have to ask yourself how valuable is this new employee to your team and company? Can he get some sensitivity training to learn not to speak that way to a female employee? If he is very skilled and valuable you might want to suggest the sensitivity training for him, if not he broke probation and can be fired for it.

You don't have to use the employee's name that he sexually harassed. In fact if you are in a state that has a no fault clause in the hiring and firing, you could fire him without giving a reason. Just say something like his position was removed due to budget problems, then create a new position to replace it with a different name.

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