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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#291

Post by harryh »

tptacek wrote: post #286
harryh wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Awarding severance to one employee probably doesn't create an implied contract with other employees. I believe that this is incorrect. If you fire 10 employees in a row and they all get severance but then the 11th doesn't they absolutely can hire a lawyer and ask why and start digging into events that lead up to the firing. If it turns out that they were fired for sexual harassment without being given a chance to r…

I am very, very interested in seeing documentation or expert opinion to back this up, because it implies that you can easily and accidentally create an implied contract for severance simply by offering one-off severance. That would imply that there's a legal disincentive to offer one-off severance (for instance, for a no-harm no-foul sorry-to-waste-your-time bad hire).

Unfortunately I have no expert opinion to give here. Merely somewhat educated amateur. Certainly at this point we are well into "go talk to an employment lawyer" territory. They could very well contradict what I have said. If that happens I will stand corrected.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#292

Post by ta_donk_gt »

econner wrote: post #187
Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

Why will firing him worsen the problem? I would fire this guy immediately. > Men and women need to learn to interact at work. Men should not need sensitivity training to interact with women at work.

> Men should not need sensitivity training to interact with women at work.

I know it feels good to take zero tolerance policies, and we all do it (why do you think we have so many people in prison in this country).

But..maybe he is some kid in his early- or mid-20's and has very little workplace experience outside of small startups working mostly with other males his age. He may have never had the opportunity to understand why this kind of behavior makes a workplace uncomfortable for those on the receiving end (and others as well).

Firing him is obviously one way to teach that lesson, and will not only lose him this job but possibly make it difficult to find another. Giving him an opportunity to learn it through training is another.

I do, though, think it's probably unfair to make an outcast of every young male who isn't born with a deep understanding of why you need to keep your attraction to women restrained once you start a grown-up job, just because you were born that way. At that point in your life (if I'm remembering correctly, it's been quite a while ;), most of your energy and focus has been in trying to attract whatever you are attracted to, and there are often no blunt cues indicating "hey, this situation is different from what you are used to".

As patio11 said, though, lawyer first if you want to keep the business alive.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#293

Post by emodendroket »

ownagefool wrote: post #194
patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

Really? If he's _just_ hired him, I presume any probationary period would be ongoing and you can let the guy go consequence free? Thus, the most obvious least path of resistance is just to let him go and not really give him cause. I'm not from the US, thus I'm genuinely asking the question. With that said, aren't we potentially overreacting here? Quite a lot of romances spark in the office. The guys tried it on, he's…

Probationary periods are basically fictional unless you've laid out some formalized termination process.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#294

Post by tptacek »

harryh wrote: post #291
tptacek wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very, very interested in seeing documentation or expert opinion to back this up, because it implies that you can easily and accidentally create an implied contract for severance simply by offering one-off severance. That would imply that there's a legal disincentive to offer one-off severance (for instance, for a no-harm no-foul sorry-to-waste-your-time bad hire).

Unfortunately I have no expert opinion to give here. Merely somewhat educated amateur. Certainly at this point we are well into "go talk to an employment lawyer" territory. They could very well contradict what I have said. If that happens I will stand corrected.

I think we agree on the most important points here.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#295

Post by Grishnakh »

kazinator wrote: post #225
BFatts wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not an example since you're talking about a website and it has a compound name. Additionally it's the porn industry, obviously, so MILF might be the okay word in that field. BUT in the software field where most people don't use the term MILF except in very private ways, MILF is derogatory. Whereas "Mother I'd Like to Fuck" isn't exactly a phrase that slips out in general corporate conversation.

Aw man, did you have to reply? :) I was about to delete that. It's a stupid comment, attracting undeserved upvotes.

With a karma score over 6000, I'm surprised you haven't already noticed that this forum is completely and utterly lacking in humor. I'm even more surprised that you claim your humorous post is being upvoted, instead of massively downvoted, which is exactly what happens any time I try to make a joke around here. (Your upvotes will probably turn into downvotes soon.) It doesn't surprise me at all that the responder totally failed to see the humor in your post. I've completely given up on making humorous posts here; on other tech discussion sites, I do pretty well, and will get modded up to "+5 Funny", but not here. So I just stick to facts and logic when I'm on here. Even Mr. Spock had a better sense of humor than the denizens of this forum.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#296

Post by emodendroket »

jeremyt wrote: post #268
hermannj314 wrote: post #109

Please get someone from HR involved. Do not immediately fire the employee as this could lead to severe financial problems for you. Despite the peasant with pitchforks in this comment section, wrongful termination / paying unemployment / litigation, etc. is also something you may want to avoid. This employee of yours may not be aware of the policy or the law and is possibly entitled to progressive disciplinary action…

Who are all these people who think a small startup has a HR department?

I guess the same ones who imagine that all the employees have an employment contract.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#297

Post by anjc »

Loughla wrote: post #269
anjc wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've literally cherry picked sentences from your own links to avoid pointing out that - as I originally said - instances of harassment such as being called a "milf" must occur at a demonstrably frequent enough rate that it creates a hostile work environment. I.e. you must be harassed, not simply affronted. It appears that you realised this halfway through your post...? Anyway, there is no court in the western world…

I was saying you were wrong that Milf doesn't mean mother I would like to fuck, and that it could be construed as harassing language.

Again, I'm not saying that this wasn't unwanted behaviour, and I'm not saying that it wouldn't be construed as harassment if it continued. But in court (it wouldn't ever get to court but) they'd just say "but it's in the Webster's dictionary as a noun and is synonymous with 'attractive', it wasn't meant literally". Then in my country the guy would be able to sue for wrongful dismissal.

I get what you're saying though.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#298

Post by Mz »

Loughla wrote: post #269
anjc wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've literally cherry picked sentences from your own links to avoid pointing out that - as I originally said - instances of harassment such as being called a "milf" must occur at a demonstrably frequent enough rate that it creates a hostile work environment. I.e. you must be harassed, not simply affronted. It appears that you realised this halfway through your post...? Anyway, there is no court in the western world…

I was saying you were wrong that Milf doesn't mean mother I would like to fuck, and that it could be construed as harassing language.

You know, the first time I saw MILF, it was in a forum and someone there said it stood for "Mature Intelligent Lady Friend." It was literally years before I learned it meant "mom I would like to fuck." I was completely shocked when I did learn that definition.

People can use offensive language and have no idea it means something offensive. This isn't just people making shit up to cover their ass so they can be abusive. Yes, that also happens. But it isn't the only possibility.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#299

Post by harryh »

tptacek wrote: post #294
harryh wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I have no expert opinion to give here. Merely somewhat educated amateur. Certainly at this point we are well into "go talk to an employment lawyer" territory. They could very well contradict what I have said. If that happens I will stand corrected.

I think we agree on the most important points here.

:thumbsup:

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#300

Post by jameshart »

jomamaxx wrote: post #247

Write it all down, consult a lawyer. Have a heart to heart with the guy and assess whether he just didn't understand or is a true creep. Let him know it doesn't fly and that you'll be keeping an eye on him, talk to the girl make sure she's cool with it. Adults, move on. All of you 'fire' 'lawyer' 'criminal' people are ridiculous. It's a single word, out of work. Imagine if two employees are dating. They are staying i…

You, er... you just called a woman a 'girl'. Did you mean to do that?
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