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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#271

Post by tptacek »

harryh wrote: post #264
tptacek wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer either, but I believe that with the exception of defamation --- getting back to "be careful about the words 'for cause'" --- it's not true that you legally owe an accused employee process before terminating them. I think what you were told was false, or that you misunderstood it. I don't think that the victims of a false harassment claim are entitled to damages for their termination. I would welcome…

I think we're pretty much on the same page here tbh. As I also was told, and believe, that being careful about the words "for cause" is almost always the right thing to do. I think it's pretty much only this series of steps that can get you into trouble: 1) Employee A claims that Employee B harassed them 2) Company doesn't put in any effort to hear Employee B's side of the story 3) Employee B is fired "for cause" for…

I know we're going on and on here, and I want to say that I generally enjoy your comments and am not just trying to be the picky message board jerk I normally am. However:

It is very unlikely that a competent hiring practice will generate implied contracts for severance pay. Employees are not generally entitled to severance. Awarding severance to one employee probably doesn't create an implied contract with other employees.

I keep coming back to this (elsewhere on the thread, too): the reason legalese employment agreements always tend to look the same is that they are designed to settle all these issues up front. I learned this when I had briefly hoped to create a more humane employment contract and employment handbook at a previous job, only to find out that pretty much only a lawyer can write either of those two things.

I think(?) the only thing at stake in a firing "for cause" is a later claim for defamation --- unless the terminated employee has a special contract which entitles them to things like severance unless terminated for cause.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#272

Post by mc32 »

harryh wrote: post #185
jonnathanson wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't upvote this enough. Patrick's advice is very sound. (Except, perhaps, for that last bit about what to say in an email to employees -- before sending any such email, please refer to Patrick's earlier, superseding advice to "Lawyer Lawyer Lawyer." Let your lawyer basically dictate what your email will say.) There are ways of handling this that have been worked out through decades of practice and litigation. Thi…

Just to add on a bit more you are probably right about "b) terminate the offending employee for cause" but before you do that you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations. If you just fire him before doing that you are likely opening yourself up to a lawsuit for wrongful termination. Yet again, this is something that a lawyer will help you handle correctly.

Why can't this person simply get fired. No cause.

Even if you want to give them the benefit of doubt (which seems extremely unmerited, given the presented evidence) why would you want to employ someone who shows such poor judgement? This is not a college dorm room. This is a professional setting, and while it is natural for romances to take place, this is in very poor taste to say the least, and even if it had been in more accepted terms, poor timing -you don't just go up to coworkers like you do patrons in a bar/pub and start chatting them up.

Why not fire without cause?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#273

Post by mpweiher »

Karunamon wrote: post #231
ndespres wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that when a woman reports harassment and says "I don't want to cause trouble," it's coming from a lifetime of not having her experiences taken seriously and situations like this backfiring. Boys will be boys, you shouldn't be dressing like that, maybe you shouldn't have lead him on.. and then the woman reporting the harassment gets labeled as the troublemaker instead of the real perpetrator. Demonstrate that…

it's coming from a lifetime of not having her experiences taken seriously and situations like this backfiring. Or, because corporate culture almost everywhere can be summed up with the phrase "don't rock the boat", gender notwithstanding. There's no need to prejudge every woman as a victim - certainly one you know nothing about other than a one paragraph story on HN. This is what's called benevolent sexism.

This. (Or you can just call it sexism)

At one of my previous employers, we had a woman quite high up in the hierarchy (boss's boss, or maybe one more level) who regularly called on young male interns to "fix" her computer, which invariably involved them crawling underneath her desk...or asking pretty much all the inappropriate job interview questions etc. etc.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#274

Post by harryh »

ScottBurson wrote: post #267
harryh wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add on a bit more you are probably right about "b) terminate the offending employee for cause" but before you do that you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations. If you just fire him before doing that you are likely opening yourself up to a lawsuit for wrongful termination. Yet again, this is something that a lawyer will help you handle correctly.

> you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations If all the OP had was the claims of the harassed employee, you might have a point. But the OP claims to have seen the actual texts sent. IANAL, and of course a lawyer should be consulted, but I would be very surprised if there were any danger in firing the employee without further ado.

It turns out that trying to reason things out from what seems right and/or fair can get you in a lot of trouble. If you haven't received specific training on how to handle this sort of thing your instincts can absolutely lead you (and the company) in a bad direction.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#275

Post by kfcm »

I'm going to address how to handle the employee who came to you in confidence.

You need to sit down with her--before you do anything--and inform her you need to do something and why. Tell her you understand she came to you in confidence, but this behavior can not be tolerated. She might be able to brush it off, but the next employee the biz dev person harasses might not be so understanding and file a sexual harassment lawsuit against the company.

And if it's discovered YOU knew of his behavior and did nothing.....

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#276

Post by stretchwithme »

Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

Have to say that makes sense. Had the same experience, except creepy behavior from a female colleague. Talked to HR, they talked to her, she apologized through HR (my preference). Work was awkward after that, but you deal with it. She eventually left.

I did not think what she did justified firing, although I would have preferred she were gone right away, of course.

People do learn boundaries. One should not overreact.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#277

Post by gambiting »

NateDad wrote: post #163
sathackr wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, so if I go to your boss and tell him you called me a MILF, it's true? It's not completely implausible there is an ulterior motive. And she is well protected if there is. He, on the other hand is not. None of us know enough about the situation to make a determination in either direction.

If you're a woman, yes, it's probably true. Like 10,000,000:1 chance. If the boss has known me for a long time and it seems completely out of character for me (which it would be), then maybe he talks to me about it to see WTF is up. But some dude who just got hired? Assuming there's no record and no witnesses? You have to go with the vastly more likely case that he did it. If that gets 1 in 10,000,000 guys unfairly f…

Jesus, your comment is absolutely terrifying to read. Come down from the high castle you put yourself in.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#278

Post by nkrisc »

falcolas wrote: post #125
NateDad wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a mistake. He didn't leave the server room door open. He called her a MILF.... TO HER FACE. He's not 12 (I assume). If he hasn't learned to be respectful to women before now, it's not this guy's job to teach him.

Per the side of the story we know. Do you know something not present in this narrative? The use of 'milf', whether it's derogatory or a compliment, will depend entirely on the context of the larger conversation. Something we don't have. Something which apparently the OP didn't have either.

The context is irrelevant. Whether or not it was intended as a compliment, or even received as a compliment does not matter. It was inappropriate for the workplace.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#279

Post by harryh »

tptacek wrote: post #271
harryh wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're pretty much on the same page here tbh. As I also was told, and believe, that being careful about the words "for cause" is almost always the right thing to do. I think it's pretty much only this series of steps that can get you into trouble: 1) Employee A claims that Employee B harassed them 2) Company doesn't put in any effort to hear Employee B's side of the story 3) Employee B is fired "for cause" for…

I know we're going on and on here, and I want to say that I generally enjoy your comments and am not just trying to be the picky message board jerk I normally am. However: It is very unlikely that a competent hiring practice will generate implied contracts for severance pay. Employees are not generally entitled to severance. Awarding severance to one employee probably doesn't create an implied contract with other emp…

> Awarding severance to one employee probably doesn't create an implied contract with other employees.

I believe that this is incorrect. If you fire 10 employees in a row and they all get severance but then the 11th doesn't they absolutely can hire a lawyer and ask why and start digging into events that lead up to the firing. If it turns out that they were fired for sexual harassment without being given a chance to refute the claims and then it turns out that the claim might have been bogus the company is going to be in a bad spot. And it's probably going to end up paying out a 5 (or maybe 6) figure check to make the problem go away.

(PS: totally understand that you aren't being a picky message board jerk. No worries at all)

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#280

Post by logfromblammo »

tptacek wrote: post #223
logfromblammo wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the consensus. The consensus in the grown-up business world is to protect the company . Protect the company from the sexual harassment suit, and protect the company from the wrongful termination suit. As such, no one will ever fire for cause on the basis of one incident report on a single interaction that occurred away from the workplace. But you can be certain that everyone in the building gets additiona…

What "wrongful termination" suit are you referring to? Please be as specific as you can.

That's the lawsuit brought by the person who gets fired, which requires the corporate lawyer to submit at least a brief and motion for dismissal, if not an actual answer to the claims.

People occasionally do sue their former employers when they believe they have been wronged in some way. If you fire someone for sexual harassment when no such thing occurred, the ex-employee might sue for no other reason than to get a declaratory judgment asserting the facts of the case, as subsequent employers may be reluctant to hire, otherwise.

Conflicts that cannot be resolved amicably often end up in civil court. Losing your job is an emotional experience which may result in loss of amity. That is all.

I did not intend to imply that such cases had inherent merit or support of statute. You can sue anyone for any reason in civil court, and appeal to equity, which is basically complaining that something isn't fair, and that the court should do a specific thing within its power to make it less unfair. If you are ever fired, for cause or not, it would be prudent to consult with an employment law specialist so as to not waste everyone's time with a frivolous suit.

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