Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#251

Post by anjc » Tue, May 10, 2016, 8:03 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #229

anjc wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you not read my post? It does not literally mean "I want to fuck you". You'd have to be pretty dense to think it is a literal come on or proposal. It's a mainstream pop culture term. Turn on any random X-Factor type show for 3 minutes and you'll hear Sharon Osbourne or someone use it. > So sexual harassment is only a US thing? If this occurred as OP described, I don't see how it can be construed as sexual harassm…

k. Let's do that, then. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm "It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature." or https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-sex.cfm "Sexual harassment can occur in a v…

You've literally cherry picked sentences from your own links to avoid pointing out that - as I originally said - instances of harassment such as being called a "milf" must occur at a demonstrably frequent enough rate that it creates a hostile work environment. I.e. you must be harassed, not simply affronted. It appears that you realised this halfway through your post...?

Anyway, there is no court in the western world which will deem this lone instance as "sexual harassment". I don't know why you're so insistent that I'm "wrong" regarding this, as if I'm the harasser or something. I have not suggested that this incident should be dismissed or taken lightly, in the least.

I simply said that I'm shocked that 90% of this thread is saying he should be fired. In my country, not only would you not be fired, it would be illegal to fire you for this.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#252

Post by joering2 » Tue, May 10, 2016, 8:07 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #227

rsp1984 wrote: post #201

I am not a lawyer, but: Apart from the "Milf" comment I don't see much in your description of events that would qualify as sexual harassment (at least not from my European view of things). Certainly unprofessional but not quite sexually harassing. As far as I understand, the transgressions were "only" verbal and there was no other inappropriate behaviour. Here's what I would do: Collect all the facts and evidence abo…

> Apart from the "Milf" comment I don't see much in your description of events that would qualify as sexual harassment Well yes, it might be hard to see the sexual harassment once you've decided to set aside the sexually harassing part.

Excuse me, but where was it?

Also, Milf can be sexual harassment. Sure. So can be telling someone "you look nice". I worked with someone that was bashed by HR by telling a co-worker "I like your new haircut". I didn't see it as SH.

It depends on point of view.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#253

Post by joering2 » Tue, May 10, 2016, 8:09 PM UTC

kbart wrote: post #8

I'm not familiar with US customs, so little confused here: is asking your co-worker out is considered a sexual harassment? Or is it the "milf" part?

Very good question!

Generally in USA everything can be considered sexual harassment. All you have to do is go to HR and complain that (here is important part), in your personal opinion, you were harassed.

Also it doesn't have to be verbal or physical. You shouldn't stare either.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#254

Post by kevinmchugh » Tue, May 10, 2016, 8:09 PM UTC

boosting7669 wrote: post #146

patio11 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will inevitably conclude with your employer settling a claim of retaliatory treatment subsequent to reporting sexual harassment for a sum of +/- $500k and with you being fired. Your competent legal advisor will, accordingly, recommend against retaliating against the reporting employee, even if you consider this issue beneath your notice. The laws of the United States on this matter are relatively well-settled an…

I obviously wouldn't fire the employee immediately for that reason. I'd give the employee in question an impossible project, and a few months down the line when the project isn't done I'd fire citing poor performance.

an impossible project is also retaliation. your scheme is actually worse than transparently firing the harassed employee, as it costs you extra salary, in addition to the lawsuit.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#255

Post by whiddershins » Tue, May 10, 2016, 8:09 PM UTC

It was very interesting for me to observe my own reaction to this thread.

When I first read what you wrote, I though "fire. immediately." I think I was just angry that someone would be so off the mark when they are a new hire. And the milf thing made me genuinely angry.

But as that anger passed I realized how much of a gross overreaction that is. People pursue workplace romance all the time. The thing that sucks about approaching someone is when it is welcome, you are golden, and when it is unwelcome, you are a creep. It is incredibly hard to get through an unwelcome approach without any awkwardness.

So really, this guy needs to learn manners, and to chill out.

Unless he continually repeats the behavior, I don't see why there's any real long term problem.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#256

Post by tptacek » Tue, May 10, 2016, 8:10 PM UTC

harryh wrote: post #250

tptacek wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to keep prodding. I, too, think the "with cause" thing doesn't add much to the solution to the problem --- if only because it just adds drama. But you can fire someone for cause, be wrong about the cause, and that termination can still be lawful. Can you be more specific about the recourse the terminated person would have in this situation?

OK first off I will 100% admit that I am not an expert in this area and hence could be wrong (going back to the previously agreed upon advice that "Lawyer up" is clearly the right thing to do). That having been said, I have received training, by a lawyer, about how to manage situations in which a sexual harassment claim has been made. In that training I was told that the accused employee has a right to hear and respo…

I'm not a lawyer either, but I believe that with the exception of defamation --- getting back to "be careful about the words 'for cause'" --- it's not true that you legally owe an accused employee process before terminating them. I think what you were told was false, or that you misunderstood it. I don't think that the victims of a false harassment claim are entitled to damages for their termination.

I would welcome expert correction here.

The slight research I've done here suggests that from a legal perspective, it's safer to terminate than not, even if you're concerned about the veracity of the accusation.

I'm going to repeat that we're in firm agreement about not firing "for cause". You don't need cause to fire employees you've competently hired. It is definitely legally risky to provide negative references that include accusations of tortious behavior! Minimize drama, by all means.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#257

Post by morgante » Tue, May 10, 2016, 8:10 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #234

I agree with Patrick: you should terminate the employee, immediately. Try to understand how lucky you just got here. Here's a simple tweak to the story you told that creates a nightmare scenario: the person who reported this to you, who was called a "milf" by the bizdev guy, was on a PIP. I disagree with Patrick on the mechanics, subject to one condition: If, like a sane person, you consulted a lawyer before you bega…

Even in that case, it might be worthwhile to get a quick confirmation from your lawyer.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#258

Post by rpgmaker » Tue, May 10, 2016, 8:11 PM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #13

Not a lawyer. When the female employee says she doesn't want to cause trouble, it just means that, if you are going to do something about this situation, then you better own it. Make this a problem between you and the employee who acted inappropriately. i.e. if/when he demonstrates understandable reasons for acting the way he did, you don't turn this around on her.

Once, I had a coworker report a sexual harassment to me (I was the team leader) but she said that she wanted me to deal with it personally, that she didn't want to make a fuss about it and that I shouldn't say anything to HR. We had a good working relationship and, like OP, I also didn't want to violate the "trust" she placed in me. I respected her "wishes" and acted accordingly. This was a mistake for many many reasons, among them the fact that it also ended up biting me in the ass. After a while someone else said some very inappropiate things to her and she ended up hating the job and decided to leave. At her exit interview with HR she said why she was leaving and, needless to say, HR didn't like the fact that I was told of the harrassment and didn't report it to them. "she told me not to get you involved and I didn't want to break her trust" doesn't cut it as an excuse (and it's also very unprofessional). HR then had a meeting with me where they let me have it. After the meeting the coworker and I talked about it and she essentially said that yeah, I should've disregarded her wishes and gotten HR involved early on. The lesson is to do what you have to do and don't pay much attention to the whole "I don't want to make a fuss" thing. My guess is that women say stuff like that because of the "likability" tax imposed on them. The whole experience was very eye opening to me, I was very young and relatively inexperienced as a team leader. Being male I was also blind at the myriad of stupid shit women get thrown at them by professional men that really should know better. Well, not blind, I knew sexual harassment happened but I never expected it to happen so close to me. I guess that being young I always thought like it was something that other people (working at other places) did. I'm still stupefied at some of the things that she experienced while she worked there and amazed that stuff like that still happens in this day and age.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#259

Post by salesthrowaway1 » Tue, May 10, 2016, 8:12 PM UTC

As an experienced biz dev person, I feel like I understand this type of employee and have worked with them many times. Based on the feedback from your female employee, it sounds like her concern is this happening to other people who doesn't "know how to deal with it" and that is why she got you involved. She doesn't seem concerned with short term repercussions, more about this employee's attitude needing adjustment for him to fit in long-term. She sounds like a very thoughtful person.

I think whatever solution you decide, you should keep her in the loop. You can't violate her trust if you are transparent about her with what you are doing.

As for the solution, it is easy to want to fire this employee. However, I think it would be the wrong thing to do. Many people are immature and the tech industry has given many people the wrong impression about how much of a party certain roles (sales) are. I'm absolutely not condoning his behavior, but based on the female employee coming to you in confidence and "not wanting to cause problems" it sounds like she doesn't believe he should be terminated for this.

What I think you should do is immediately document this incident. Document it well, and file it in his HR file. Tell your female employee that his behavior is unacceptable, and you are going to speak to him with HR about acceptable and unacceptable communication between employees.

Then you watch and see if he improves, and maintains an acceptable level of respect and decency while hitting his quota and contributing to the company's success. If he does not to this, then you have plenty of cause to eliminate him.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#260

Post by sizzzzlerz » Tue, May 10, 2016, 8:13 PM UTC

Nip this in the bud right now! This isn't the guy's first attempt at harassment (there is no other word for it) and it will not be his last. If you have a no-tolerance clause in your employee manual, fire the guy. If not, a serious discussion is in order and, depending upon how it goes, either the guy is immediately fired or is placed on double secret probation for some period of time. Explain that if this happens again, he's gone, immediately. No appeal. No reprieve.

Seriously, you need to protect your company and yourself from these things. A seemingly minor event can go nuclear on you quicker than you could ever believe.